Plant-Based Eating For Hikers

In this episode, I interview Kyle Kamp from Valley To Peak Nutrition, to discuss some practical and actionable nutrition strategies for hikers who follow some variation of plant-based eating.

Whether you are a vegan, vegetarian or just eat a high percentage of plant-based foods, there is no doubt there are many hikers and adventure athletes out there following some type of plant-based eating.
 
Unfortunately, however, the quality of information out there for hikers around these nutrition philosophies leaves a lot to be desired...
  
And all too often, this can lead hikers to see limitations in their physical performance while hiking and training.
  
So today, I have Kyle (an accredited dietician who specialises in hikers) back on the show, to share some science-backed and practical nutrition strategies for plant-based hikers.
 
You will learn: 
 

• A few key areas which plant-based hikers need to be aware of (which can have some massive consequences to your energy, recovery and performance while hiking)
• How much fuel a hiker needs to consume while on the trail (hitting this will keep your energy levels high, your mind focused and your mood good!)
• A range of simple snacks for plant-based hikers, which can SKYROCKET your performance on the trail
• A simple formula for any hiker, to plan their post-exercise fuel (to ensure your body has everything it needs to kickstart the recovery process)
• Sugar crashes: should you worry about them on the trail?
• How hikers can both lose weight AND perform at their best on the trail (this common-sense recommendation allows you to get the best of both worlds)

 
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You can find Kyle here:
 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/v2pnutrition/
Website: https://www.v2pnutrition.com

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Episode Transcript:

Rowan :
Today I have invited my mate Kyle Kamp from Valley to Peak Nutrition back on the show to discuss plant based eating for hikers. Now, before we get into the episode today, I want to make a few things really, really clear from the get go. Now, to begin with the intention behind this episode is to provide some quality nutrition strategies and advice for hikers who are already vegan, vegetarian, or predominantly plant based eaters. The information in this episode is not designed to try and convince a hiker towards a plant based nutrition approach or away from one. It really is my belief that this type of conversation gets way too emotional and really doesn't have a huge amount of value for anyone.

Rowan :
Second, you might be thinking why I have brought Kyle on the show to chat about this subject rather than someone who themselves in their personal life follow a plant-based nutrition approach. Now, the reason behind this is that Kyle is an accredited dietician who is both incredibly knowledgeable and practical about nutrition for hikers. And most of all, he's someone who I really, really trust in this area.

Rowan :
All too often, the information around this subjects just gets a little bit too emotional and a little bit too philosophical, and it leaves a whole lot of information out there on this subject for hikers and every else in general, just leaving a lot to be desired. So I wanted Kyle to come on the show and explain some science based and practical nutrition strategies and tips for hikers, which I knew I could 100% trust.

Rowan :
Now, to top this all off, Kyle has personally worked with a couple of my clients previously, and he's done consults for them around their nutrition who have been following some variation of plant based eating, and the difference that he has made to both their hiking and their training performance without telling them or advising them that they need to change their nutrition philosophy is truly phenomenal. So I know his stuff and the approach he takes works in this area. And I really would recommend anyone who needs some help with their nutrition to reach out to Kyle. And I'll leave all the details for that in the show notes below.

Rowan :
So now that is all out there and that is all covered. Let's get into the today's episode. There's some quality information around all this stuff, and I really do think you get a huge amount of value out of it. So let's get into it. Hey Kyle, welcome back to the show, mate.

Kyle :
Hey Rowan, appreciate you having me, man. I always enjoy being with you.

Rowan :
Absolutely stoked to have you back on the show. Last time round, you put some really, really great information for everyone out there. Got a really huge amount of great feedback. So I'm really looking forward today just to dig into a little bit of extra detail around some nutrition strategies for plant-based hikers. So let's just dive straight in and get into the good stuff. So if someone was following a predominantly plant based eating approach and they were training for a hike, what are some particular areas in their nutrition which they need to be aware of?

Kyle :
There's several things. And I mean, obviously all of these things are going to somewhat depend on individual circumstance on what a person's eating. But one thing that I've noticed in particular was working with ... I think first of all, it's good to preface like so there's plant-based eating, there's vegetarians, there's vegans, there's all of these sort of caveat things that people either for ethical reasons or for tolerance reasons or for whatever reasons they've chosen to eat this way. And I think that is totally fine and people should respect that. But when you say plant based, it doesn't necessarily mean vegan.

Kyle :
So a person could have some meat in their diet though relatively small amounts. And then you go to the vegan side of things where people are entirely meat free. So there is a little bit of a differentiation in walking through a client, trying to understand where they're at and the reasons behind where they're at, just so I have a better understanding and can guide my recommendations as such.

Kyle :
But the one thing that I have found be the most common particularly with vegans is they really struggle with enough total calorie intake, right? And so in the world of performance nutrition, which is what I deal with, and of course your audience would have interest in that being hikers themselves, calories do matter, but particularly calories from the right type of things tend to fuel that type of an activity. But the first thing that comes to mind is people tend to eat really, really low calorie whenever following a plant based or a vegan diet.

Kyle :
Now, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, except for you'll lose a substantial amount of weight costing you expensive energy and not allowing you to hike well, potentially not even allowing you to finish something like a long hike or to make a summit bid for an 8,000 meter peak or what have you. So I would say that's probably one of the first things that stands out, and it makes sense, right? I mean most plant based foods are high volume, nutrient dense, high water, low calorie type of foods. And so when you build a diet around that, as incredibly healthy as that could potentially be, you also risk not getting adequate energy in a manner that allows you to perform well whenever you want to the most on the trail.

Rowan :
And then if there were someone say they were following an approach like this, and they were say also trying to go down the weight lost journeys, as I know a lot of people were doing, but they were also wanting to fuel their performance on the trail as you were saying, what would be a way they could find a balance around that?

Kyle :
Well, you'd have to start by trying to determine, okay, well, how many calories do I need? And so we've got a number of different algorithms. And I think that you and I touched on this pretty good on the last podcast in terms of trying to just use very basic numbers to at least get a person close to how many calories they need. And so once you understand how many calories you need, even in a calorie deficit, as long as you're providing enough carbohydrate in the diet, even while in a deficit, there should be enough fuel substrate there, there should be enough energy there from the right thing to fuel the activity itself.

Kyle :
And so we have three major macronutrients, carbohydrates, proteins, and fats. We refer to both proteins and fats as proteins, or I'm sorry, we refer to carbohydrates and fats as proteins sparing nutrients, which allows the protein to go do its job of healing the muscle, but it also supplies enough carbohydrate in the diet to be able to fuel the activity in spite of being at a calorie deficit.

Kyle :
Now, if you combine a low calorie diet with a low carbohydrate diet, that could potentially lead a person to really not performing well, whenever they're trying to hike a mountain. And so we have several different energy systems that the body operates off of and the main differentiating factor between each of those energy systems is time, how long you're active. The second of those energy systems tends to span the time from 10 seconds to two minutes. And we call that the lactic acid system. And what's interesting about that, when you're making a push, like let's say that you're hiking a relatively flat hill but you come upon a little bit of an incline where you gain some elevation so you're making a big push somewhere between that 10 second and two minute period. The only thing that fuels that energy system is carbohydrate.

Kyle :
And so if you've got poor carbohydrate intake in the body, while in a calorie deficit, there's potential that you're not going to have any "gas in the tank" to be able to get up that mountain. I do think too ... Sorry to keep going. You know how excited I get about nutrition. I think too, plant based, there is a potential risk of ... and I know I'll probably get hate mail about this, but there's a potential risk of not getting enough protein in. So you do not need this body builders, 200 gram per day, chugging protein drinks type of a regimen to achieve your goals by any means. But getting adequate protein intake, and again, that's based on an individual basis, on a person's weight, a person's activity level, what type of activity they're engaged in.

Kyle :
And just so making sure that that is planned out appropriately so you're getting enough either from complete vegan sources or trying to mix some sort of a meat based protein with a predominantly plant based diet, even if the protein's something like eggs or meat or fish or something like that. Because you could certainly get by with and have adequate protein intake from smaller portions of protein than the traditional diet that most people follow while getting the rest of it from nuts, legumes and beans and things like that.

Rowan :
On top of that, beyond the protein intake, what would be some common mistakes you would see people or hikers who are following some spectrum of the plant-based eating approach, what would be a common mistake that you see and then what could they potentially do instead?

Kyle :
Well, I think there's a couple of common mistakes. Number one is eliminating foods that are very nutrient dense. So foods that have certain vitamins and minerals in them to the point where a person could become deficient because those vitamins and those minerals, we tend to focus on the macronutrients in terms of not only performance nutrition and weight loss or weight maintenance or weight gains, that we tend to overlook things like vitamins and minerals. And so iron is a great example of that. If you follow a vegan diet, there is a reasonable risk that you become iron deficient even with supplementation. And so that risk exists. And whenever you're talking about people that are spending a reasonable amount of time at or above altitude, iron is essential to have in the body so you're able to carry enough oxygen to the cells and be able to perform well and not get sick and all these other things.

Kyle :
So when you look at iron specifically, and this could be teased out into a number of different nutrients, supplemental iron is not as bio available, meaning it doesn't get absorbed as well as iron from actual foods. Now, if you tease that out further, we have two types of iron. We've got something known as heme iron, and then we've got something known as non-heme iron. Heme iron is absorbed very, very well. Non-heme iron is absorbed very, very poorly. And so if you're relying on things like spinach, though it has iron, the absorption is very poor. There's very, very little amounts of iron relative to how much you have to eat. And so it would be wise to potentially get that tested if you're planning a big trip to somewhere, spending time above altitude, to make sure that your stores are full prior to going.

Kyle :
And again, teasing that out further. And it just kind of shows how nuanced nutrition can get. There are certain things that compete with iron. So if you're taking iron in the morning with your coffee, caffeine and iron, they compete at the absorption site and the caffeine generally wins. Meaning you could still be iron deficient simply because you're not absorbing it. So it's got to do with several different things. And it's touching base with someone who knows, right, and planning out your trip, telling them and explaining them what your current regimen is. Them not trying to get you to change your lifestyle, because that is something dieticians are often guilty of is, "Well, why do you not eat any meat? You need meat for protein." No, you don't. You can get plenty of protein without trying to eat meat, but you do need or you could perhaps benefit from a regimen that's laid out a little bit better than what you're currently doing.

Rowan :
Moving into some of the real specific stuff. Before someone heads into either a hike or a training session if they're preparing for a hike, what are some easy nutrition ideas that a plant-based eater could follow to help their performance?

Kyle :
There's a reasonable amount of research that shows that when someone goes to a plant-based diet, they tend to do better on the performance spectrum of any type of an athletic endeavor be at a big hike or something like sprints in, and some sort of a traditional sport like soccer, football, or something along those lines. And when you start to read the studies as to why that is, it's because they've increased their carbohydrate intake. And so the two things that exist in my mind that a person plant-based or not could do to prepare themselves well is not to try to go on a low carb diet would be number one and using that in combination with, and I'm sure you'll appreciate this, but doing some sort of an exercise taper prior to going out for the big event. So that combination tends to load the muscle glycogen with as much carb as possible.

Kyle :
And what's interesting about muscle glycogen, which is the storage form of carbohydrate is that is essentially used only to fuel that muscle, meaning it can't fuel the body. It's only meant to fuel the muscle. And so if those are dry or if those are depleted in any sense, either from a low carb diet or excess exercise without adequate recovery, you will not do near as well as you would, if you had prepared better for some sort of an event coming up. So I don't know that that's plant based specific, but that is one thing that comes to mind, because I often see people that are plant based eaters also trying to eat low carbohydrate based diets. And while there's nothing wrong with that in terms of working an office job, you're not talking about an office job if you're trying to make a summit bid to Kilimanjaro or if you're going to Everest base camp, or you're trying to do a long hike on the PCT, you are essentially an athlete and you need to fuel like that.

Kyle :
So I think it's vital for people to make that shift in their mind. There's all of this concern about inflammation in the body with excess carbohydrate intake. And when you read the study, you come to realize that the only thing that's going to cause inflammation in the body from excess carbohydrate intake is if that excess carbohydrate intake is combined with a sedentary lifestyle, someone who doesn't move every day. But for people who are highly active, that carbohydrate is burned rapidly and has no time to sit in the body and cause any potential problems or chronic disease. So you have to sort of take that common thinking about carbs "making people fat", put it on the shelf and fuel your body like an athlete, because you'll perform and studies even prove this, you'll perform nine times better. So I think that's one thing.

Kyle :
And the other thing is particularly for vegans and plant-based eaters is really trying to make sure that you don't underestimate the power of the micronutrients, the vitamins and the minerals that we were talking about earlier. We touched a little bit on iron. One thing that we didn't touch on was the B vitamins. So there's a whole host and a whole family of B vitamins. And those B vitamins are responsible for a number of things, but one major thing that would be of interest to you and your audience and the people that I work with is they're responsible for converting food into usable energy in a cycle that we use to create energy called the TCA cycle, if people are wanting to go look that up. So those are involved in that process in making sure that it functions smooth. If those aren't there, then you are not necessarily performing optimally.

Kyle :
And again, we're not talking about a situation where a person goes to the mountains and they die. Whatever. If you're eating, if something's going to work because the body has intrinsic mechanisms to shift from one fuel substrate to another, from one macronutrient to another to give it what it needs, but that does not mean that it's an efficient method. So if you supply what's needed, it functions optimally. You feel better and you enjoy. And that's the goal. The goal is not just to make it to the top, right? The goal is to make it to the top, feel good about it, and look forward to the next trip by the time you're down, rather than just looking forward to getting home.

Rowan :
To dive into the specifics there, what are some examples you could sort of list off the top of your head around carbohydrate sources, which before a hiker might eat, and then for B vitamins, where they might find that following a plant-based approach?

Kyle :
Well, you could tackle both of them just by making sure that you include plenty of whole grains. So a lot of whole grains are known for having the B vitamin families. A matter of fact, when you begin to research some of the data around the folks who follow a ketogenic diet, which is a very low carbohydrate, moderate protein, high fat diet, you find that there are a lot, not all, but there are a lot of folks who become deficient in the B vitamins, because the first thing that they give up is whole wheat pasta, whole wheat breads, whole grain rice, and grains that are considered very healthy in the apportioned size that you need to match your energy. So that's a great place to look in terms of obtaining the B vitamins.

Kyle :
Now, you can certainly get them from some other places like soybeans, for instance, contain a reasonable amount of B12. But again, we're not talking about the same amount of B12 that's in meat. So if you're not a meat eater, and you're not getting these high bio availability type sources, you're not getting sources that are absorbed well, looking to other things like even fortified foods. So foods that have had these vitamins added back into them in the processing process is another reasonable place to look as well.

Kyle :
And so I remember specifically working with someone that you were also working with and there's so much fear enveloped in eating processed foods and eating foods that are good and labeling foods is bad, and this food causes this and that food causes that. And studying this day in and day out and in the profession that I work in, I know that there's very little legitimacy to a lot of those claims.

Kyle :
And so on a whim, not on a whim, she was sort of shocked by it, but I made the suggestion. I said, "Hey, what about on your hike instead of taking these really high fiber, low carbohydrate type snacks, you take a bag of Cheerios, right? Or you eat a couple of just plain low fiber pancakes before heading up the mountain." And her report back to me was not only did she not have any indigestion problems, but she noticed a great increase in performance. And so that to me is a win, because of course, whenever you eat a lot of fiber, it slows digestion in the stomach and it's that much longer before the fuel is available to you for use. So trying to make sure that you get just a variety ... putting some of these fears that you've heard on the shelf, and then make sure that you get a variety of different fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and those type of things would be the best way for you to get not only the B vitamins, but to increase your carbohydrate stores prior to heading out for a hike or any type of activity that you're trying to do.

Rowan :
I remember hearing feedback from that particular client and she really was blown away from the difference that she felt on the trail after those simple changes. So it really goes to show just how powerful that such a simple thing can be.

Kyle :
Yeah. And I think it's worth ... this is a good place too to touch on. When you're following a predominantly plant-based diet and you're following a vegan diet, your fiber intake goes up significantly. Now, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but fiber is indigestible in the gut. And so what tends to happen is you get a lot of fiber intake in, it sits in the gut, and then it causes fermentation in the gut. That fermentation of byproduct of that fermentation is gas. And so people who begin a plant based diet or who have trouble with digestion on a plant-based vegan type of a diet, generally when you say, "Hey, let's look at lowering your fiber intake some, if your X, Y, and Z ways." They tend to begin to feel better, though it seems like all of these foods are less quality, but in reality, they're not because your body's burning through those things so darn fast that the trade off of being able to digest them better seems like a pretty reasonable one.

Rowan :
So then following on from that, while you're actually on the trail, what are some easy snacks that someone following one of these plant-based eating approaches could look into to help them?

Kyle :
So it essentially would depend on anything that falls within the restrictions of what their diet holds that they like is essentially what they could take, but some potential suggestions depending again on those things, what I'm always trying to get athletes or clients, particularly clients who spend time in the mountains to aim for is to have somewhere between 45 and 60 grams of carbohydrate every couple of hours. So when we're doing a very physical activity, our body's able to metabolize as many as 60 to 90 grams of carbohydrate per 60 to 90 minutes. That's one gram of carbohydrate per minute, basically. So to keep those stores in the muscle full, I'm trying to replace them with time matching grams.

Kyle :
So I'm constantly trying to get them to get between 60 and 90 grams every couple of hours. And so when I'm making recommendations for snacks, that's one thing I'm keeping an eye to. So right now, for example, I'm looking at a pack of what essentially amounts to Graham crackers, they're Velveeta crackers with a small squeeze packet of almond butter, a couple of handfuls of peanut butter pretzels, a couple of pop tarts, two to three servings of a high sugar, high carbohydrate dual source carbohydrate, meaning there's two types of carbohydrate in it. Snack like gummy bears, for example, or even Twizzlers, Pixy Stix, Smarties, things that are very low in fiber and rapidly metabolized to give you the fuel that's needed nearly instantaneously. So those are a couple of examples.

Kyle :
And then even doing things like trail mix and matching like a salty grain-based like goldfish crackers or pretzels or something like that combined with some nuts and dried fruit is a great way to get plenty of carbohydrates in on the trail. It's obviously easy to pack. It doesn't need any type of cooking, and it's great. It's great fuel source as well between the raisins and the pretzels. I've got ... What else do I have listed in here? Looks like a couple of cups of any type of dry cereal that you like.

Kyle :
So for this gal, for example, we did Cheerios. The one that I'm looking at here in front of me, where I had planned a guided a 10 day trip up in Alaska in the Brooks Range, he took a couple of cups of Golden Grahams cereal that knocked out 60 grams of carbs in a serving. So there are ... I mean, the ideas and the potential are nearly endless, but again, I think focusing on things that are rather low in protein, low in fiber, and don't have a ton of fat in them. And then again, balancing that with trying to hit somewhere between 45, 60, 90 grams of carbs every couple of hours to make sure that you're keeping those proverbial tanks full.

Rowan :
And then I know you touched on this earlier in the episode, but I'd like you to just repeat it again and potentially go into a little bit more detail, because I know it will come up from comments on the podcast. If someone was looking at having some of the more processed quicker digesting food on the trail so gummy bears as you recommended, and they were worried about sugar crashes, what would you tell them?

Kyle :
Sugar crashes because of a condition like diabetes or something similar?

Rowan :
No, no, no. So beyond medical concerns, but purely that thought process of I'm having the quickly digested sugar, I'm going to go up and then I'm going to go down really quickly, which a lot of people mention when they're talking about these types of snacks. The reason why I bring that up over in Australia, at least there a few years ago on TV, there were these ads. I can't remember what they were for. There was something about some type of low GI snack in the school and they put this big graphic on the TV where they were like a traditional snack. Your blood sugar spikes, goes really high and then you die and you get that afternoon crash or better, this particular snack, it's going to be slow digesting and sort of will keep you sustained energy for long. And that sort of just a type of thinking that I know a lot of Australians have and I know a lot of people that have talked to me previously have.

Kyle :
Yeah. So that brings a little more light to it. I would imagine, were these folks in the advertisements, was this sort of a general culture like general recommendation given on TV or was it an outdoor centric type of a recommendation?

Rowan :
No, just a general recommendation.

Kyle :
Yeah. So if a person is inactive and they eat a high carbohydrate based food, the blood sugar does spike and drop quick because the cells aren't as active. They're not as receptive to that. So it remains in the blood sugar for the most part. It rises and then falls rather quickly. Now, in general terms, for people that work in an office, they're not active at all, you do want to incorporate more of a high fiber, moderate fat, moderate protein type of a diet because those things slow digestion and slow ... how fast things move through the stomach so you stay fuller longer. Your blood sugars tend to be a little bit better, but when you're active, it is completely different.

Kyle :
Your cells are using that glucose almost instantaneously. So now it becomes a matter of providing enough to get through the next endpoint where you need to eat again. And so this translates into, well, wouldn't fat be the best fuel? It's not the most efficient fuel. So the cost of burning fat is high in that it requires more oxygen to burn fat than it does from carbohydrate. So you're expending more oxygen and the efficiency is poor, meaning it takes a very long time to convert a piece of metabolized and stored fat to usable energy as opposed to where carbohydrates nearly instantaneous. It's almost three times faster, if not more.

Rowan :
After a hike. So once someone's done their hike, they've done their training session. What are some foods, a plant-based eater could eat to aid their recovery a little bit?

Kyle :
So again, the focus on post hike recovery post, post any type of workout recovery is enough protein to begin the healing process for whatever muscles were used, and then enough carbohydrate to restore whatever muscle glycogen was used. And so we use numbers to give general recommendations as to how many grams of carbohydrate someone should have in that post hike meal and how many grams of protein someone should have in that post hike meal. And a good ratio to aim for would be four parts carbohydrate to one part protein afterwards. And I know that we're talking about predominantly plant-based eaters, but an example of that would be like chocolate milk as an example, eight ounce glass of chocolate milk has about 40 grams of carbohydrate compared to 10 grams of protein.

Kyle :
So that gives you an idea of what that four to one ratio looks like whenever it's teased out a little bit more. And then likewise, Clif Bar, again, 40 ... usually somewhere between ... there's usually pretty darn close to a four to one ratio in a Clif Bar. I'm not a huge fan of Clif Bars. That's just a fact. So people can kind of get an idea of what that looks like in terms of, "Okay, well, how do I know what four to one looks like?" And it is basically trying for about 45 grams of carbohydrate for every 10 grams of protein.

Rowan :
Too easy then. Well, if there was a hiker listening to this who did want a bit of help with their nutrition, whether they're plant-based eating approach or just any old hiker, where can they find you online? How can they get in contact?

Kyle :
So got a few different ways that social media, just on Instagram. So the company is called Valley to Peak Nutrition. It's V2 and then two is the number. So V2P nutrition. The same handle v2pnutrition.com. And there's contact information on there that I'm happy to reach out to folks that are interested and touch base on there.

Rowan :
Fantastic. Well, I'll drop a link for that below in the show notes, as well as a link over to your website as well. So people can check you out, but thank you so much for coming on, Kyle. Again, you've absolutely blown me away with some really, really solid and practical information, which I think so many people can get some benefits of. I really appreciate you coming on, mate.

Kyle :
Yeah, my pleasure, man. Thanks so much for having me, Rowan. I appreciate it.

Rowan :
So there you go, guys. I really do hope you've enjoyed today's episode. One massive favor. I would really appreciate from everyone listening if you do know a plant-based hiker, whether they follow a vegan, vegetarian, or just predominantly plant-based approach to their nutrition, I would absolutely love if you could share this podcast with them to help spread the great information Kyle just shared there and obviously help spread the love of the podcast. So again, I hope you've enjoyed this today and we'll talk to you very soon.

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