Overcoming Plantar Pain For Hiking - Interview With Stephen

In this episode, I interview Summit Strength client Stephen about how his training and preparation to overcome plantar pain leading into his hike to the Philmont Scout Range.
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Inside he shares some of the tips and strategies he used to overcome his foot pain and get through the hike in comfort.

You can contact Stephen here: stephen@footlooseoutdoors.com

Find the Lone Star Coastal Alliance here:

explorelonestarcoastal.com and lonestarcoastal.org

How To Get Fit For The Philmont Scout Ranch Hike

Episode Transcript:

Rowan:
Going. Okay. All right, Stephen, welcome, welcome to the show, mate. Really, really looking forward to having you on board. Thanks so much for coming on.

Stephen:
Oh, thank you very much for having me on. If there's one thing I like to talk about, it's hiking and backpacking. So, you got the right guy.

Rowan:
Yeah, we definitely come to the right place, then. And, yeah, I think this is going to be an awesome episode, because we're chatting just beforehand, and I think the hike you've done recently, and the challenges you face for stuff that a lot of hikers that I talk to deal with and quite a few are aspiring to. So, it's going to be really, really cool. But before I get ahead of myself, but let's start from the start. And could you just want to give us a rundown around who you are, where you're from, what do you do, and what is your background in hockey?

Stephen:
Okay, well, my name is Stephen Klein. I live in Houston, Texas now and I've lived here for a very long time, but spent my formative years in North Carolina. And I'm currently an architect. But I have lots of other interests going on that maybe we can talk about later. But most of my backpacking and hiking background has been in scouting. And so, when I was in North Carolina, we would do a lot of our weekend hikes. We're on the Appalachian Trail, so I've done a few sections of the Appalachian Trail as a kid.

Stephen:
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to go back as an adult but that's definitely on my bucket list. And as an adult scout leader, we also do a heck of a lot of backpacking. Among them was my fourth trip to Philmont as an adult advisor. That's another thing I never got to do as a kid was to go to Philmont, which is kind of the Mount Everest of scouting. It's one of the best high adventure programs that they have. And it's really a lot about getting the boys out there and teaching them different methodologies for how to deal with bears, how to cook in the woods, how to take care of their waste, and just enjoy nature. There's a huge, kind of almost spiritual aspect to it when you're sitting around at night and looking up at these gorgeous stars in the sky. So, it becomes this incredible outdoor experience, both for the boys and for me. Clearly, I keep going back. So, there must be something great that I like about it for sure.

Rowan:
Yeah, fantastic.

Stephen:
So, that's my background.

Rowan:
The whole story around that when you sort of describing it there, it just sounds like such an awesome experience. Because when I was younger, I did scouts for a number of years over here, but I guess I wasn't maybe so in deep in the culture. And I guess, maybe, the culture of scouting over in Australia might be a little bit different to the States, but I definitely didn't experience something as a major event, bad or major sort of hike or something like that. So yeah, it definitely gets me a little bit envious on that front, I got to say.

Rowan:
But either way, so yeah, you've got Philmont coming up. When we sort of had a chat together and first decided to start working together around, what specifically were you wanting to train for? And what outcomes were you aiming for?

Stephen:
As I mentioned before, this was my fourth trip to Philmont over the past 10 years. So, my first trip was back in 2011, when again in 2013, 2015, and now 2021. And each of those experiences at Philmont, I always ended up with plantar fasciitis. And that usually came about during my training, which consisted mostly of just putting on a backpack with a bunch of weights in it and going out and walking. And so, I wasn't really doing anything that was very good for my body as far as training goes.

Stephen:
I do have to say at that point, I was also a yoga teacher as well. So, I kind of in my naivety thought that the yoga would make me almost bulletproof. I'm just like, "Hey, I stretch. I'm strong." But each one those experiences ended up with some significant foot pain, including one trip where we did 108 miles, and I did 108 miles with a stress fracture in my heel. So, my three prior trips to Philmont had been less than ideal as far as my foot health goes. I have to go back and say, "All the other experiences of it were fantastic." All of the, being in nature, the walking, everything else is involved in the programs that they do.

Stephen:
But I always struggled with foot health. And I did a Google search for how to train for hiking, and your podcast came up, and I started listening to it. And one day, you had an invitation that you wanted 10 hikers to join your program. And so, I dropped you an e-mail. And next thing I know, we were talking on the phone, and we're talking about how to do a proper training. And the kind of hard factor or mitigating factor in here was that I only had six weeks to train at this point. So, we kind of had an uphill battle ahead of us when we first started our work together.

Rowan:
Okay, and then tell us a bit about the training that you did through so much strength. We started working together, you came on board with these six weeks ahead, but what did that involve? And what did your program look like?

Stephen:
Well, the program was the Happy Plantar Program. And as I said before, my training was not very specific for anything. So, when you came up with the Happy Plantar program, there were strengthening and conditioning, there was stretching, and then recovery. Which was kind of, to me, almost the biggest thing was the recovery, doing a lot of the conditioning and the strengthening. I'm already fairly flexible, but the recovery part was pretty big. And the things that I remember, kind of struggling with, I guess, were the, I mean, one of the things was called dead bugs, which is I think some core things, the step-down things which are one legged exercises. I began to realize that I had all of these weaknesses in my legs all the way from my foot up to my hip that really needed to be strengthened up and also to be stretched.

Stephen:
So, it was a comprehensive program rather than a scattershot program. And being also an architect and development guy, another struggle was finding the time to do all of the exercises and to fit them all in. And so, I did the best I could. But occasionally I missed a few here and there. But in the end, it was a very, very highly effective program. Because I did this particular trip, according to my phone, I walked 146 miles over 12 days, 64 of the miles were with a full backpack and I did not have a single bit of plantar fasciitis.

Stephen:
There were only two occasions where I remembered my feet being sore and those were after particularly rugged trail days where we had long days and we were hiking over rocks and things like that. So, but other than that, it was absolutely marvelous to be pain free the entire trip, and didn't rain, so that's even better. So, I didn't have the wet foot problem either.

Rowan:
That's awesome. Yeah, not only the feet feeling good, but the weather behaving itself that always makes things easier, doesn't it?

Stephen:
Yeah, I don't know if I posted any pictures on the summit website or in the app or anything like that in Facebook. Our training hike was essentially about eight and a half mile waiting trip. We were basically walking through ankle to knee deep water the entire time. So hopefully, I guess I got all of the water Juju out of the way for Philmont and the rain gods were kind to us and it didn't rain on us.

Rowan:
So, you mentioned earlier that sort of having a busy job, fitting in the sessions was something that was occasionally a bit of a struggle for you through it. Were there any other sort of roadblocks or other struggles that you faced during the sort of preparation period? And if so, what did you do about overcoming them?

Stephen:
Yeah. Well, the time was the biggest one. And the way I overcame that one was to do all of the workouts in the morning, before things got going. Because if I waited until the end of the day, I might be tired or something, a happy hour might pop up. And I can't say no to that, of course. If we were doing things in the afternoon, it was easier for me to skip them than it would be in the morning when I first woke up.

Stephen:
And in fact, I do the morning routine before I get out of bed still every day. So that has definitely continued. There was cycling, it was part of the program as well, with pickups. Houston is pretty much flat as a pancake. We are 40 feet above sea level and it is just flat as flat can be. And being in the middle of a rather large city, sometimes it was difficult to be able to do biking and be continuous without stopping and starting all the time.

Stephen:
So, one of the things that I began to do was SoulCycle. It's a spinning class on a stationary bike. And those were a blast, they were a lot of fun. But you also get a very extended period of high intensity interval training going on and that really helped a lot with my aerobic conditioning. And I don't know if you or the listeners know much about how spin classes work, but much of the time is spent essentially standing up and pedaling, so you're not you're not seated the whole time. You're standing up and pedaling, which actually mimics hill climbing quite well. And hill climbing is one of the things that of course, it's difficult for us to do here. We can go to stadiums and things like that and climb stairs, but we really don't have hills around here. So that's the big shocker for most people who come from Houston and show up at Philmont is like, "Wow, we've got to go uphill here." A lot of hills.

Rowan:
Yeah, a great surprise there. So, you mentioned, we'll take a step back. You mentioned briefly about that morning routine and that you sort of still doing that. Now just for the listeners who may not be aware of that, what that is. Could you describe that a little bit? What that actually is and what it involves?

Stephen:
It involves doing stretches that are associated with the plantar fasciitis, which is generally kind of the lower leg stuff, including some massages, and you do it in bed before you get out. And I added a few other parts in there to kind of help stretch out my lower back a little bit, some twists along with the footwork. But one of the things that is a sign of plantar fasciitis is the first few steps out of bed in the morning can be painful if you have an active case of plantar fasciitis going on. So, doing that before getting out of bed, I think was essential in making sure that the calf muscles were a little bit longer. The Achilles tendon had been massaged and the soles of the feet had been massaged. So, and again, I still do that every morning.

Rowan:
Yeah, fantastic. In that little routine, it's something that, exactly as you said, that sort of first steps out of bed in the morning for people dealing with plantar issues. For anyone who dealt with it knows exactly what we're talking about. It's not much, not a great way to start your day. And yeah, that little [inaudible 00:15:19] was so good to see that, some people get some really good benefits from that. Some people don't notice so much, but it's sort of a free, easy, cheap, little option. And the fact that you notice the difference with it, just doing it before you get out of bed in the morning, that's such a big win from such a simple thing. So, that's really good to hear.

Rowan:
So, beyond that then, were there any other sort of favorite exercises or favorite workouts in the process that you particularly enjoyed or found benefits from?

Stephen:
The thing that I kind of really liked about the program was the accountability on the Facebook page. So, I liked seeing these messages pop up. What is it, accountability? I can't remember all those now. Accountability Friday or maybe Accountability Monday, Wins Wednesday. Yeah, so there were all of these different ways that we could check in, and you could kind of basically check in on us, which I think is important to making sure that you get the exercises done.

Stephen:
And that in the end is, I think, what made my training successful is that, I would feel guilty if I didn't do it and didn't check in. And so, it worked out well for me clearly. And the other thing were the cork balls for doing recovery work for massaging muscles, for stretching the bottoms of your feet. You can also use them to roll out shoulders and things like that either on the ground or on a wall. So, I really liked the balls. And my wife is also a yoga teacher, and she teaches classes using, I guess they're not fitness balls, not lacrosse balls. It's somewhere in hardness in between.

Stephen:
But the cork balls are great, because they're super lightweight. It rode in my backpack, and even though I was taking along, additional things like that my backpack was still lighter than it had ever been before. And so, I really liked having that particular element and was able to use it to recover when we're sitting around the campfire at night.

Rowan:
Yeah, fantastic. You've already given us a little bit of an overview, but give us some detail about how did the trail go. Talk us through chip trip and how it all went?

Stephen:
Let's see. Well, so Philmont being a scout ranch, they have a very, very effective program for your itineraries. For nutrition, nutrition is handled on the trail, which is fortunate. And then, they also have a training session that happens. And that's the first two days that you arrive in Cimarron, New Mexico, just so you know where Philmont is. It's in northern New Mexico, kind of close to the Colorado border.

Stephen:
And when you arrive there, you're met by your Ranger. And the Ranger is the guy who takes you through all the medical things, takes you through all the logistics and meals and crew gear. So, during those first two days, were there basically training the boys to do everything. So, there's a joke that if you go to Philmont as an adult advisor that you're on "vacation", you can't see my air quotes there.

Stephen:
And normally, it's a lot of work. Fortunately, I like doing the hiking and things like that. This time, again, this was as close to a perfect Philmont trip as I can imagine, because it was a group of older boys. So, they were much more competent at doing all of the cooking, the cleaning, the bear lines, setting up the camp. So, it was actually really close to a vacation for me this time. And on top of having good foot health and no rain, it's like, Wow, this was just like a fantastic trip. I almost feel like I can't go back now."

Stephen:
So, on day two is when we hit the trail. And they, usually again, the itineraries are built specifically to get you used to the altitude. This is again, I come from 4,000 feet, and I think base camp is around 6,000 feet. And we spent four of the nights above 10,000 feet camping. So that was one of the biggest challenges once I actually got to Philmont was adjusting to the altitude being from sea level and trying to get my wind. So, it took probably about four to five days before I finally acclimated to the point where I was beginning to feel good when I would climb the hill, for example. But I wouldn't be breathing quite as hard. I mean, everybody was breathing pretty hard. But, again, I credit your training, Rowan, in being able to keep up with a bunch of 16 to 18-year olds on the trail. So, big thumbs up on that. Because I think I did better on the trail at 56 years old than I did at 46 years old, the very first time I went. So that is a big deal to me.

Stephen:
So, the first couple of days there, Philmont is divided into North Country and South Country. South Country is to be a little bit wetter, and that's where we were. And so, we did have quite a few river crossings where we actually had to stop and take off our hiking boots and put on water shoes and wade through water. And then, we eventually got to where most of the crossings were either log bridges or stepping stones across. But we did quite a few river crossings along the way, because we would essentially follow rivers up the trail.

Stephen:
So most of the time at Philmont, when you first start out in the morning, after you break camp, you're generally going straight up. So, they take you up, up, up, up, up, up to the top of a ridge. You get to hike along the top of a ridge, see a beautiful view, and then you hike down, down, down, down, down to where you camp in the next valley. And so, it goes like that. So, in the morning, you're always climbing when you're kind of fresh, and then you're generally going down in the evening. Unless of course, as it was with our itinerary, we would often end up for four days, we would end up hiking higher and higher every, every night. Until we I think our highest camp was 10,006.

Stephen:
And during that time, when we were up in the very high country, we summited seven peaks that were over 11,000 feet and four of the peaks we did within 24 hours. So, it was pretty strenuous to say the least. And the trails there are very, very rocky for the most part. So, one thing that I did not do, and I seem to remember a debate either on your podcast or perhaps on the Facebook group about trekking poles. So, I'm not a trekking pole guy. And I was the only one in the group who did not have trekking poles. And I also hike with hiking shoes versus boots with high ankle protection. So those were things that were somewhat in the back of my mind, a little bit worrisome that, "Okay well, here I am the old guy. What if I twist my ankle? What if I fall?"

Stephen:
Fortunately, that never happened. But, I would love to hear what people have to say about trekking poles versus no trekking poles. And also, ankle support versus no ankle support. Again, none of my trips have I actually hiked with full boots. They've always been hiking shoes, very rugged hiking shoes, but hiking shoes nonetheless. And part of that is also trying to build up the strength of my ankles, so that, hopefully, I can resist if you turn your foot off to the side or something like that. The muscular strength is there to prevent the sprain.

Stephen:
So, these rugged trails, and then followed by really, really nice downtime, generally, in a beautiful Alpine Meadow stars. In the city of Houston, we've got a big light pollution problem. And when I get into New Mexico, and look at the stars at night, it is absolutely stunning. In fact, I used to know all the constellations, but there are so many stars that I can't even pick out the constellations. It's crazy how many stars are up there and how the Milky Way is like this cloud across the sky.

Stephen:
So, there is this kind of deep feeling of peace. The entire time I was there, I did not ever have the desire to design a building. I didn't miss it one bit. I was always there in the present moment. And it was a great group of boys that we had, who kept a great pace. They had really good morale the whole time, which is also somewhat of a rarity at Philmont because it is designed to be a bit of a pressure cooker. And to give the boys an experience of leadership and helping them to realize core competencies about the outdoors and about their own physical limits. And so, I think that may be my favorite part aside from the beautiful views is watching the boys on these tracks, on these itineraries, really grow up before your eyes. It's a really cool experience. And I don't even know if I answered the question about how the trail was.

Rowan:
No, no, that's amazing. You almost transported me there. That was such an equipped description of everything. And just that fact on what you said that the whole time they didn't think about designing a house once, so hoping I got that right, that is a special feeling. Isn't it? That's when you know, you're right in the moment, right taking all the [inaudible 00:28:48]. And I know everyone listening, they'll know that feeling as well. When you sit and find that serenity on the trail and everything just is going in the right way. That's awesome. Oh, good. You're getting all the feelings filled up for me, man.

Stephen:
That's great.

Rowan:
So, I guess, at the end of this hike, after all of it, and we'll have the whole trip, I should say not just the hype, but how did you feel at the end of it? What was sort of going through your head? And did you celebrate in any way? Talk us through that.

Stephen:
Yeah. By the last day, I felt fantastic. In fact, it's almost like the Philmont trek should be 20 days long. So, you have 10 days to get to where you feel fantastic and then you can do 10 days under fully acclimated, and all the sore muscles are going on. Yeah, I usually lose about 15 pounds over the course of those days. So, I just feel good and light in my body.

Stephen:
And there was, in prior trips when my feet hurt the whole time, I was kind of like, "Okay, I'm going to miss this, but I'm also glad it's over." This time it was, "Wow, I can do this for the rest of my life. This is fantastic." So, the celebration was rather low key, I guess. I really enjoyed finally sleeping in a bed in the hotel on the drive home, because it was about a 15-hour drive. And so, that was the celebration was to have a regular meal with a beer and a night in a bed, in a comfortable real bed.

Rowan:
Yeah. And I think we can all know how good that does feel after a solid adventure. So, I think that celebration itself, isn't it? Oh, good.

Stephen:
Yeah, and one of the things when I went back, and I had 10,000 foot, lungs, and legs. I did a SoulCycle class that week that I got back and breathe through my nose the entire time. It was pretty amazing.

Rowan:
There you go. There you go. That's when you know your body has handled everything well and adapted well, because that's a rare feeling that, "Oh, good." So, what's on what's on the hiking agenda moving forward, then? Is there anything else in the calendar or anything else in your sights moving ahead?

Stephen:
In the next couple of weeks, we're going to be camping with my son in Philadelphia. That's going to be a little bit more car camping and more day hiking. But my oldest son is a PhD Forestry student in Utah. And Utah is pretty much the same mountain range that Philmont is in, it's just a little bit further to the north, I think. I may be wrong about that, about the mountain range, but it's a very, very similar type of terrain and vegetation, highly similar. And my son, his name is Kipling. He was a ranger at Philmont in 2015. So, we were fortunate enough to have him as our Ranger. And so, he trained up our crew at that point, but he is a regular hiker and rock climber, and general all around outdoors guy.

Stephen:
So, I believe at Christmas time, we're going to be heading up there to do some skiing. But there will also be perhaps a fall trip or a spring trip where we may go hiking in Utah. So that's like the big hike that we might have coming up. I also do a monthly hike with my wife and we go to different state parks around Texas and we generally, probably do maybe a seven to 10-mile day of day hiking. So, I stay pretty active as far as hiking goes. But I think if there's any big thing that I want to do, it would be to get back to the Appalachian Trail and dare I say do a thru hike. That would be pretty awesome to be able to do the Georgia to Maine trip on the Appalachian Trail. But that's still just a dream right now.

Rowan:
Yeah, just that bucket list goal to eventually get to one day.

Stephen:
Right.

Rowan:
How good. And then, if anyone was sort of considering, a hike around Philmont or they had something similar to this, maybe they were another adult scout leader coming through to the ranch trip or anything like that. What advice could you give them if they were leading into a trip similar to yourself?

Stephen:
I would say to either hire you to do their training or I mean, I refer them all to your podcast, the other adult leaders that I know who are also going. But the main thing is that, there's nothing that can really prepare you for the altitude. And you're probably going to have a few rough days at the beginning, as far as that goes. But also, to kind of trust the Philmont process, these itineraries are designed for people to be able to ramp up their performance. So, they're not going to have you climb the mountain on day two. You're going to do that until at least day six or day five or six.

Stephen:
So, the other thing is to just trust and listen to your Ranger. Because they, again, they've got this stuff figured out. They do 25,000 scouts go through there every summer. And so, they have their system down as far as logistics goes, the anti-bear strategies, on-trail hygiene, and nutrition. So just listen to those guys, because they also change it up. So, try to arrive, I guess, with a beginner's mind is what I would say. Because even if you know and you've been there before, things change. And I think that you would do well to just act like it's your first time going and not try to second guess or tell the Ranger that he doesn't know what he's talking about, or whatever, which our Ranger has said, people have told him that.

Stephen:
So that would be probably the best advice. Those pieces about kind of trust the system, and make sure that you do some sort of preparation. And, what was the other point? And then, you're just going to have to push through the altitude issues.

Rowan:
Yeah. Okay. Now, before we wrap things up today, I want to sort of talk about a little bit about... You've got a really cool project in the works at the moment. And a really, really interesting thing coming up. Do you want to just talk us through a little bit about that as sort of what you got in the works? What it's all about? And it gives us a bit of a rundown?

Stephen:
Yeah, sure. The name of the company is Footloose Outdoors. And it lives at the nexus of nature, science, and rustic luxury. So, the idea is to be able to educate the public about our natural resources and the importance of them by having guided nature walks that are led by naturalists or scientists who are familiar with the flora and fauna of the area. And to be able to get them to the point where they can see the importance of these natural resources that we have by experiencing them directly.

Stephen:
And then there's also mindfulness aspects, there's glamping involved. So, it's not necessarily a backpacking trip, although we would probably do a few itineraries where there would be backpacking involved or kayaking and things like that. But for the most part, they would end up being day hikes, followed by an evening with yoga, meditation, really great food, great wine, and all cooked outdoors. So, it's an entire outdoor experience.

Stephen:
And so, this is an idea that actually kind of solidified when I was up there on the mountain in Philmont. To be able to have this, I do not know if you call it an organization, this company that does this. As with a lot of things in the universe, when you start putting your attention to it, magic seems to happen. And I've recently been contacted by the Lone Star Coastal Alliance, and they're an organization not for profit, that has a very, very similar mission to Footloose Outdoors which is the education about natural resources.

Stephen:
Of course, they don't include the glamping in the wine like I do, but they were extraordinarily excited about this, about Footloose, because they said there's nobody who is doing any sort of tracks like this, that are like a full package, that are kind of fully immersive like this. So, I'm becoming very excited about pulling together these itineraries and beginning to do some prototype camps, and get it out there in the real world. So, I'm really looking forward to kicking off Footloose.

Rowan:
Yeah, fantastic. And I think it is, yeah, it's such an exciting idea and such a worthwhile idea. And it's going to be really, really cool to see how it grows and how it progresses and we'll definitely have you back on the podcast to talk in a little bit more detail at some stage. And if someone was sort of what you're putting down there, and they're like, "Oh, that sounds pretty interesting to me." Is there any way they could sort of get in contact with you? Or maybe keep in touch or keep an eye out for what's going on there?

Stephen:
Yeah, there is. The first couple of itineraries will be posted on the Lone Star Coastal Alliance website when they're ready to hatch. But if there's anyone in the region who's even interested in maybe doing it, I can still make arrangements and just pull together a camp out, whether it's done with the full vision or not, I think the important thing is to get people out there, in nature, in the woods, in the swamp, wherever they need to be, to be able to see this stuff.

Stephen:
So, I don't know if you can post my email address or something like that with the show notes or whatever, from the podcast. I'm not sure how that works, but I would be certainly happy to share that information.

Rowan:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I'll leave Yeah. I'll leave that and anything else relevant in the show notes below, so anyone who's listening, they can check that out and keep in contact and all of that. And as I said, we'll definitely explore it a little bit more in the future on another episode as well.

Rowan:
But either way, Stephen, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on today. It's been really, really cool hearing a little bit about your story, a little bit about your feet, your training and the trip as well. And, and I think, as I said before, like the way you're describing a lot of the stuff on the trip, you got away with words, mate. That's all I can say. You did pretty well there. So, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing all this because it's been super interesting hearing about and I think a lot of people will really enjoy hearing everything you've had to say today.

Stephen:
Oh, well, thank you so much for having me on, and it's absolutely my pleasure. I love this stuff.

Rowan:
Oh, good. All right. Well, thank you so much and we'll talk to you soon.

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