Respiratory Muscle Training For High Altitude Mountaineers And Hikers

In this episode, we explore respiratory muscle training (strength training for your breathing muscles), which is a very interesting area of training for high-altitude mountaineers.​

Inside, we explore:
​

• What is respiratory muscle training?
• The potential benefits of respiratory muscle training for high-altitude mountaineers
• How to develop and train respiratory muscle strength (and a few methods which are often talked about, but are probably not very effective) 

Episode Chapters:

0:17 
Introduction to High-Altitude Training
2:14 
Exploring Respiratory Muscle Training
5:43 
What is Respiratory Muscle Training?
6:45 
Potential Benefits for Mountaineers
16:14 
Delving Deeper into Benefits
17:00 
Addressing Skepticism in the Community
18:57 
Training Prescription Simplified
19:30 
The Cost of Training Devices
23:11 
Brands and Recommendations
26:28 
Conclusion and Final Thoughts​

Episode Transcript:

[0:00] All right, hello, hello, ladies and gentlemen. So in today's episode, we are exploring a very interesting area of training for high attitude mountaineers,

[0:10] which has a few very, very particular, but very, very cool potential benefits for the mountain. And we're going to be exploring a little bit about this topic, what it's all about, and how you may be able to apply this in your training. Now, when it comes down to high attitude mountaineering, you know, there are so many unknowns. And so many question marks around how you're going to feel and how you're going to perform at high altitude. We all know that. And that is one of the biggest things that people run into when they're looking at a big high altitude expedition. And because of these unknowns, you know, there are a lot of mountaineers out there who were really looking, to get an edge with their training. They're really looking for anything they can do to help them perform a little bit better in the attitude, feel more comfortable, and give themselves a little bit more chance of having a successful adventure.

[1:04] And beyond the fundamentals of your training, your cardio, your strength training, your specific hiking or mountaineering, all of that stuff that we talk about in this podcast all the time, mountaineers often get into this point where they're thinking, what else can they be doing? What else can they be layering on top of this to help? You know, some mountaineers will go down the route of nutrition, which is a huge subject and so many potential benefits. And I definitely strongly encourage every single mountaineer to go down this and put a bit of effort into it and put a bit of attention because it's definitely worthwhile. Now, other mountaineers will go down the route of looking at simulated attitude training, which depending on how you actually go about this and the application of this type of training you know it can sometimes be useful for a few particular situations or particular benefits you know some other mountaineers will sort of go down the route of looking at you know training masks or nasal dilators or breath hold training or cold plungers or or Wim Hof breathing or or whatever may be or a dozen other things to give them advantage and I've heard so many little things that mountaineers have tried over the years because they're

[2:13] just trying to do everything they can. They're throwing the kitchen sink at these adventures and they want to be giving themselves the best chance possible.

[2:20] However, when you are getting away from the fundamentals and you're getting away from those basics of good training, good nutrition, and the stuff that is a part of a lot of people's preparation, when we get away from those basics, it can often be hard to really know what is worth looking at. Because there's a lot of stuff out there. There's a lot of good marketing. There's a lot of people talking about things, which they're saying these really cool things, but you know what? You don't really know if you can trust them. And it can really be difficult to know what is worth your time and what really may end up being a waste of time, a waste of effort and a waste of money. And this can end up being a bit of a gray area. And this is why, for the most part, what I just talk about, the fundamentals, because we know that works. We know that will bring benefits and we know it's going to be worth your time.

[3:09] If you are admittedly a mountaineer who's already nailing that, who was already nailing the fundamentals, and if you are looking for something a little bit extra to give you an edge, I think respiratory muscle training, the topic we're exploring today, is definitely worth a look. I think it's a topic which doesn't really get much attention in the world of mountaineering, but I think it's definitely worthwhile considering if you're in this situation. So we're going to be exploring this a little bit today. what we are going to be covering today is we're going to cover what is respiratory muscle training and just talking through exactly what's going on there. We're going to talk through a few potential benefits of respiratory muscle training for high attitude mountaineers and how specifically it may be able to help you. I'm going to talk you through one big reason why I kind of lean towards this approach to breathing training if you're going down that route as opposed to many other approaches to breathing training which often get talked about in the mountaineering community. And I'll also talk you through probably the major drawback of this type of training, just so you're well aware that, okay, this may be a little bit tricky.

[4:16] And then at the end, I'll explore if you are interested in learning more about this subject, or you want to get started with this subject, how to actually go about it. So first of all, let's get into it. First up, what exactly is this? When I'm talking about respiratory muscle training, what is this? Well, essentially, it's very, very simple. It's strength training for your breathing muscles. Now, when we're talking about normal strength training, what we do is we have our muscles. In order for them to get stronger, we apply resistance so the muscles will be stressed, and then they'll adapt, and they will grow stronger. And then we apply more and more resistance over time for them to keep on getting stronger and stronger. And it's literally the same thing for our breathing muscles. We apply resistance to our breathing muscles to force them to adapt and force them to get stronger.

[5:04] For respiratory muscle training, when we're talking about this specifically for mountaineers, what we are particularly talking about is building up the strength in the muscles responsible for our inspiration, for breathing in, for them to adapt and get stronger. There are a lot of different methods of respiratory muscle training. A lot of people talk about different subjects and a lot of different facets, and you can train the muscles responsible for breathing out, your expiratory muscles. But in this context, we're talking about inspiratory muscle training, the muscles responsible for breathing in. So with that being said, why would you do this? Why would you even bother thinking

[5:42] about this type of thing? Don't your lungs, don't your muscles work, breathing muscles work well enough as it is.

[5:49] Well, when it comes down to it, there are a few really cool potential benefits for high-attitude mountaineers. And there are a few really cool potential benefits which made me look at this and be like, yeah, that's definitely worthwhile considering. Now, when I say potential benefits, that is what it is, potential. There is some very interesting research. I'm not making this stuff up or just whatever it may be. There are studies and evidence that look at this, which definitely makes it look very promising. But with any type of breathing training and with any type of high-attitude stuff, it's definitely not 100%. It's definitely not set in stone. It's not going to guarantee these things are going to happen for you, but it's very promising. So when it comes down to the benefits of respiratory muscle training, there are six big ones, which I think are very, very, very interesting for high-attitude mountaineers. Now, bear with me here because I am going to get a little bit science-y with some of these things. What I'm about to talk you through is directly pulled from the research articles that I've read.

[6:46] So they may sound a little bit geeky, and I know in the podcast format when we're talking about science, sometimes it can be just like going in one ear, out the other. So bear with me here. I'll talk you through these benefits. Hopefully it makes sense. You may have to rewind if it's just sort of a zone out or whatever it may be, but hopefully we'll see you next time.

[7:03] Not. And hopefully we go. So benefit number one, respiratory muscle training. What it can do is it can delay the onset of premature fatigue in the breathing muscles. Now, in a high-attitude environment, obviously we are breathing much more. We will naturally go into hyperventilation as part of the acclimatization process. Obviously, we just breathe more in that environment. What has been seen is when we are in a high-attitude environment, exercise-induced diaphragm fatigue has been shown to be enhanced. Now, our diaphragm is our main breathing muscle, and exercise-induced fatigue is essentially just from exercising and breathing harder. Now, in this environment, the high-attitude, our ventilation levels, as I said before, are highly increased through our hyperventilation, which can provoke inspiratory muscle fatigue because those muscles are just working very, very fast. And because they are working very fast, they're not working in their most efficient way. They're not managing to go to their most efficient length where we get those nice, big, deep breaths in, which is kind of what those muscles want. And also at the speed that they want. So, you know, we're breathing quicker than we're kind of used to. So this can lead to the potential for respiratory muscle fatigue, specifically in those inspiratory muscles, at altitude has been a bit of a limiting factor for performance. It makes sense. If these breathing muscles fatigue, it's going to make things harder. Pretty straightforward.

[8:32] Now, by strengthening the inspiratory muscles, we can reduce the relative work of our breathing muscles, meaning every breath is easier to do and delay the associated fatigue. So that's exactly the same thing when we're talking about strength training in the sense if we go to a gym, you know, when we're mountaineering, we never really get to the point where our muscles completely give out on us.

[8:53] And we may do that in the gym, but the reason why we apply heavy resistance to our muscles in the gym or whatever it is, is to increase our relative strength. So every single step we take on the mountain feels easier. That's pretty much the same thing we're looking at here. So that's benefit number one. Respiratory muscle training can potentially delay the onset of premature fatigue.

[9:14] Benefit number two, and this is a mouthful, so bear with me, is respiratory muscle training can delay respiratory muscle metaboreflex onset and more favorable blood redistribution to the locomotor muscles. A mouthful, I know, but let me explain it. Now, when we are up at altitude, the oxygen cost of breathing can be quite a bit. And when we're doing maximal exercise at altitude, and admittedly not all mountaineers or not many mountaineers will be doing maximal exercise, But let's just use this as an example. During maximal exercise at altitude, the oxygen cost of breathing can approach up to 30% of total oxygen consumption. So how much your oxygen, your breathing muscles need to operate. Now, admittedly, as I said before, mountaineers probably aren't doing maximal exercise, but it will be to a degree. Now, because of this, what can happen here is if the breathing muscles need so much oxygen, it needs to get blood to that area to deliver the oxygen. So therefore, blood can move away from the working muscles, the legs or whatever it may be, to redistribute that oxygen and can limit their work output to a degree. It's not all or nothing. It's not like, oh my gosh, my legs don't have any blood in them, but it can be a bit of a change.

[10:34] This is known as the respiratory muscle metabreflex. So essentially when blood gets pulled away from the working muscles to go to the breathing muscles. On top of this, hyperventilation, which we said before happens at altitude, can cause a buildup in waste products. So basically just responsible for those muscles contracting, contracting, contracting. There's other things that build up as part of that process, which are known as waste products, which can simulate the same thing, the respiratory muscle metaboreflex. Bit of a mouthful, but hopefully that makes sense.

[11:07] Now, onto the benefit is respiratory muscle training has been shown to effectively reduce the effect of these reflex at both maximal and submaximal exercise at altitude, meaning that blood or less blood will get pulled away from the working muscles, meaning we'll be able to work harder and delay fatigue in the mountain. And this essentially allows more blood to go to the working muscles and allows improved recruitment of those muscles, which in turn leads to lower perception of effort during exercise and greater exercise performance. Now, this is one of the big things that a lot of people, like when they look at this type of training, say, and they're like, well, it's not really like lung capacity, which is limiting us at altitude. It's not really this. So it's not really that. And like, you know, why would you train your breathing muscles? But this is the big one, because if those are the breathing is working harder and harder and harder. And if this blood gets pulled away, it can impact us. And respiratory muscle training has been shown to delay that, which is really beneficial.

[12:05] Next up is respiratory muscle training can improve clearance and tolerance to anaerobic metabolite products. Another mouthful. So essentially what that means is we often talk about on this podcast aerobic energy system. So that's the main energy system we use as a mountaineer to provide energy for long periods of time. Now on the flip side, we have our anaerobic energy systems, which is essentially our energy systems, which are designed to create energy without using oxygen as a fuel source, and we tend to rely on these more and more and more the more high intensity we go. Now, at high altitude, as much as mountaineering is predominantly an aerobic-based sport, when we go to high altitude, there is an increased reliance on anaerobic metabolism. Essentially, we will be using those anaerobic energy systems more because the intensity of exercise is more up in that environment.

[12:59] The issue here is when we are using those anaerobic energy systems, one of the drawbacks is there are a number of waste products which are associated with these and those things. That's one of the reasons why we create energy very quickly with those energy systems, but they fatigue relatively quickly. One of the reasons is because we have these associated products. So things like hydrogen ions build up in the body and that can lead to fatigue and affect exercise performance. Now, respiratory muscle training has been shown to upregulate the removal of those waste products, as well as improve our muscles' ability to effectively tolerate them, and especially in the respiratory muscles, meaning we can get rid of those waste products and those hydrogen ions a little bit easier, and also when they're there, they won't affect us quite as much, which is pretty significant.

[13:47] Next up is respiratory muscle training can decrease perceptions of dysnipia. And I always butcher that word pronunciation, but basically dysnipia, or however you say that word, is uncomfortable breathlessness. That is literally the term for it. And uncomfortable breathlessness is common in a high-attitude environment. Now, for a number of reasons, respiratory muscle training can reduce the perception of this breathlessness, help us feel a bit more comfortable, and delay that onset of us getting into that point where we're like, oh my gosh, this sucks. Now, this can be incredibly beneficial mentally because a lot of people do not enjoy this feeling. And if we get this feeling, we stress out about it, we can end up making things worse and worse as we stress and getting anxious and all of that. And this can also just allow us to feel more comfortable in that high attitude environment and maintain exercise performance and not let that just feeling get in the way of things, which is pretty significant. So two more to go. Bear with me. Hopefully this is still making sense. Next up is respiratory muscle training can increase blood oxygen saturation values at high altitude.

[14:51] Now, oxygen saturation is a measurement of the percentage of how much hemoglobin is saturated with oxygen. A lot of mountaineers are aware of this, like, hey, blood oxygen saturation, pretty valuable. A lot of studies have shown an increase in saturation levels at altitude after a respiratory muscle training program. Now, the reason behind this, you know, there's a lot of question marks around that, and they're like, could be this, could be that, not really sure, or at least from what I've seen. However, the general reasonings behind this is that if the efficiency of our entire breathing system, ventilator system is improved, the body just doesn't need to work as hard to maintain a certain blood oxygen saturation.

[15:30] It's pretty good. Now, I'm not saying that directly will affect your risk of attitude sickness. I'm not saying it directly, whatever it may be, but that's something that's definitely beneficial and happy days there. And then finally, this is a very interesting one. Respiratory muscle training can improve processing speed and working memory during exercise at altitude. Some studies have shown that RMT, respiratory muscle training, can improve both processing speed and working memory. Meaning, you know, if you're trying to do certain tasks and you're getting that spaciness or whatever it may be, or you're struggling to focus or you're struggling to remember or whatever it is, this can potentially somewhat reduce that, which may not sound like a huge amount, but it can be pretty significant for a high-altitude mountaineer.

[16:14] So there you go six potential benefits there and each of those in all honesty they're pretty interesting and each of those you know by itself i would sort of say that's a really cool benefit for a mountaineer and again i said this is all potential so this isn't set in stone there may be things that change or there may be other stuff that comes out but you know there seems like a good promising evidence for this type of stuff.

[16:39] Now, those are the benefits. Let me talk you through a couple of extra things because I have talked about this subject previously before on social media. And every single time I think about it, I always come back to a very interesting interaction I had with someone where basically this topic came up,

[16:57] I was talking about a little bit and a mountaineer piped up as I always do. And they seemed genuinely annoyed that this topic came up or very genuinely frustrated. And basically, they were sort of saying like, hey, you know what? This training was a waste of time compared to training aerobic energy system. And that was their kind of argument. And yes, absolutely. If you were thinking about this type of training, like, hey, that all sounds cool. And you're thinking, hey, maybe I'll do this instead of going for my cardio or instead of going for a run or a hike, whatever it may be. Yeah, that's going down the wrong route.

[17:28] This is not something you well if you had to choose between developing your aerobic capacity and building up your respiratory muscle strength absolutely 100 of the time aerobic capacity the way to go but the favorite my favorite thing about this particular method of training is you don't have to choose this isn't a type of training where you have to replace your other cardio sessions it isn't a type of training where you have to dedicate a lot of time it isn't a type of training which you have to apply into your training sessions, which compromises your performance in certain ways or another. There's a lot of methods of breathing and a lot of these extra types of training, which do those things. But respiratory muscle training does in no way replace or inhibit your normal training. If you're doing those fundamentals, you can still do them. You can still get all those great benefits out of this. And this is just an accessory method of training. This is just something you add extra to bump things up.

[18:25] The way we go about respiratory muscle training in a really, really, really simple nutshell is the training prescription for this is essentially doing three minutes of this type of training in the morning, three minutes of this in the evening, and you do this for about six weeks before a big climb. You can do this indefinitely if you want, but typically they say about six weeks to get the best results. That's literally six minutes a day. So it's not like you're running on a treadmill with a mask on. It's not like you're doing countless step-ups trying to do breath-hold training.

[18:54] It's not like you have to go do random things and this and that. It's literally six minutes a day. So if you are looking for an extra, which you can layer on top of your standard training, your standard preparations, this in all honesty is pretty achievable.

[19:09] Now, with all that bedside, this may sound well and good. You might be like, okay, cool, Rowan. I can see that's some pretty cool benefits. Six minutes a day sounds pretty good to me. Why haven't I heard about this before? Or why is this not just something you talked about all the time? Or why is this not huge in the world of mountaineering? And there is one drawback around this type of thing.

[19:30] Because the breathing muscles themselves, they're pretty strong. Even if we do feel like we regularly get out of breath, even if we do feel like we struggle without breathing, unless you have a medical condition, your breathing muscles are pretty strong in the grand scheme of things. So if you want to get them stronger, we need to apply enough resistance for them, for them to actually get stressed out, want to adapt, and want to improve their strength. And sometimes you do see people talking about this area of training in the mountaineering community, but they'll say, yes, it is important or valuable to improve your respiratory muscle strength. But then they'll sort of say, hey, maybe just do some one-nostril breathing, where you close one nostril and just do really powerful inhales through one nose. And you're like, well, yeah, that feels a little bit difficult.

[20:19] Or do breathing through a straw and literally hold a straw and do really powerful explosive breaths through the straw. Or maybe like lie down and put a weight plate on your belly and do weighted belly breathing or whatever. And I've seen these things recommended to people. And people say, look, this will improve your respiratory muscle strength. But realistically, this is tricky. These things, they're not going to provide enough resistance. As I said, the breathing muscles are strong. and the evidence when we're looking into this subject is like you need to apply quite a bit of resistance for them to actually want to get stronger and ultimately to adequately load these up and get these moving forward you need to buy a specific respiratory training device something which you basically put in your mouth you breathe through and it applies resistance and similar to a dumbbell it'll apply different levels of resistance so as you get stronger and stronger go, you can increase resistance, increase your resistance, increase your resistance. And the tricky thing here is it is investment.

[21:18] Typically, these will range depending on the brand, depending on the product, depending on how fancy you want to get. They'll range anywhere from a hundred bucks to maybe like 500 bucks, like dollars, from what I've seen. There's a bunch of brands out there these days. So it does require a bit of investment. And a lot of people are like, well, I'm already spending all this money on my mountaineering gear. I'm already spending all this money on my trip do i really want to spend this money like on just this thing which i'm going to use for six weeks so that is the the drawback to this and in all honesty this is why i think it's just not pushed in the mountaineering community quite as much because obviously you got to spend money here um, And a lot of people say, hey, we can develop this, but try to get around it. But in all honesty, I don't think it's going to be super effective. So that is the slight drawback when it comes down to this.

[22:05] But saying that, if you are in a situation where you're like, yeah, I'm happy to invest another 100, 200 bucks or something like that. And I want to layer this on top of what I'm doing. This could be potentially a really cool option. Now, if you're looking at specific brands or recommendations on where to sort of look at, as I said, there's a bunch of different options out there. There's really two brands that I have personal experience with. Number one, there's a brand called Power Breathe. Now, this is a brand that a lot of the research has been done on. I think they were kind of the one of the early adopters of this, and a lot of the research has been done on these specific devices, and they can be definitely great. They have a huge amount of products, but if you are getting something in your specific mountaineering situation, and you want to get an inspiratory muscle trainer. Again, you can get quite expensive ones, which are quite fancy and this and that. You can get quite cheap ones or whatever. I would more lean towards the cheaper ones. In all honesty, you don't need to get too fancy unless you're doing this as a really, really, really serious long-term thing. The other brand which I've experienced with is a brand called AeroFit.

[23:08] I've used a bunch of their devices. They're pretty good as well. They've got a simple device, which is relatively cheap, which does the job. They do have some more expensive ones, which kind of have like smart options and like online connectivity and all of this, which if you're interested in that, you know, can be cool. But again, you can kind of get the cheap one or whatever it is. Now, if you do buy a device, one thing I do often see from people when it comes down to this is, as a lot of any type of, I guess, training gadget or whatever, they'll buy it, they'll use it once or twice, and then they'll forget about it.

[23:40] See it all the time. If you are getting this and if you're investing the money or whatever it may be, just be aware if you want to see results, you need to be doing the right things for the right time. We don't want to just be doing once or twice or every once in a while and thinking we're going to get results. It's like similar training. Consistency is key and the right training protocol is key. Now, if you are buying a device, it should come with instructions for you. There should be like an app attached or some written inscriptions or whatever may be. Realistically, the training protocol for you is very, very, very simple. But if they don't give you specific things, what you want to be looking at is if you have an option, a bunch of options, you want to make sure you're choosing one, which will, it'll be like called inspiratory muscle training or something like that. That's what we're looking at. Something that's going to train the inspiratory training muscles. Now, the main training protocol that has been studied on this, that's been to be seem to be very, very effective, is essentially the studies have looked at doing 30 breaths in the morning, 30 breaths in the evening. That's three minutes in the morning, three minutes in the evening, and finding a level of resistance where we fatigue by the end of those 30 breaths.

[24:52] Now, the reason I mentioned this is some trainers, if you get them, some of them come with like apps or whatever may be, they'll have a bunch of different training protocols, all well and good to do the other stuff. If you're interested in breathing, if you want to do this, or whatever it may be, but that's the basic. That's what we want to be nailing. Dirty breaths in the morning, dirty breaths in the evening for six weeks as a minimum leading into your trip.

[25:14] On top of this, technique is pretty important with this type of stuff. You can just go out and absolutely just not even think and just train and train and train. It may not really do what we want. So make sure you're following that technique. And again, the brand should provide instructions in that and if they don't then reach out to their customer support say hey.

[25:35] Give me a bit more help and they should be able to sort you out. And then finally, as I said before, load is important. When you're using this type of thing, we want to make sure we're loading it up properly because there are a lot of studies that have shown that you can choose a resistance which feels difficult, that isn't quite of the specific load that they recommend and isn't quite as effective, even though it feels difficult. So when you're loading it up, again, Again, follow the instructions, make sure you're following what they recommend, and you're not just like, ah, I'm getting a little bit of resistance, but it's something that is getting you to fatigue by the end of whatever reps you're doing, by the end of those 30 breaths. Again, I'm not going to go into the specifics on all of this right now because that's a bit beyond this podcast, but if you do buy it from a brand, they should give you instructions. The protocol is very, very simple, but they'll lay it all out for you clearly, hopefully.

[26:29] So with that being said, let's wrap things up because it has been a bit of a long episode going on about this. Just to remind you, whenever we're talking about something like this, when it comes to training for mountaineering, nothing is ever going to replace the fundamentals. Nothing is ever going to beat the basics. make sure you are doing good solid endurance training you are building up your aerobic capacity over time you're getting exposed to some slightly longer higher intensity efforts that you are getting exposure to specific challenges for mountaineering you're building up your pack tolerance you're getting exposure to elevation you're working on speed requirements if you have them make sure you're doing the basics there make sure you're following a structured strength training program which progresses over time and exposes you to strength and endurance, Get the fundamentals right. This type of stuff is never meant to replace it. It's never going to give you as many benefits as the basics.

[27:27] But if you are already doing that, if you're nailing that, if you're confident you are being consistent and building up and really, really, really getting the basics right, and if you want to do a little bit extra, I truly do believe that respiratory muscle training is a really valid option and potentially very, very useful for mountaineers. It has some really great potential benefits from this type of thing. And just as important, and this is kind of where it differs from a lot of different breathing, it has very little drawbacks. It's not going to negatively affect your training. It's not going to negatively affect your energy.

[28:02] It doesn't really have a huge amount of drawbacks as opposed to having to invest in that device. Best case scenario, if you apply this type of training, you'll get all of these amazing benefits. It'll make a genuine difference and you'll feel really, really good. And it'll be a great use of your time and effort. Worst case scenario, absolute worst case scenario. Say you did this and it didn't do a single thing. It didn't make a change to any of those things I mentioned before. And it was just an absolute waste of your time in regards to training. Worst case scenario, it's not going to impact your other training because you're not doing it combined with your other training. It's not going to impact your energy because it's only three minutes a day. And at the very, very worst case scenario, if you're doing that three minutes in the morning, three minutes in the evening for six weeks, you're only going to lose about three to four hours worth of training time over a six-week period, which in the grand scheme of things compared to other stuff that you could potentially waste time on isn't too major. Yeah.

[29:01] So, I honestly think it can be potentially really cool. So, with that being said, I am going to wrap things up here. There's a bunch more I could say on this subject, but I think I've talked enough on it. Respiratory muscle training, very, very interesting. If you're interested in breathing training, I personally think this is definitely a way to go. Hopefully, there's more and more research coming out in the future looking at high altitude. But either way, I think it is pretty cool. Not a huge amount of drawbacks and definitely potentially interesting to look into. So with that being said, going to wrap things up here. Thank you for listening. I hope it was interesting. I hope it was helpful. And we'll talk to you very soon. Bye.

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