Interviewing Ray From Back Track Adventures

In this episode, I interview Ray Baker, one of the founders of Back Track Adventures. 
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Ray has over 40 years and 80 trips worth of experience in high-altitude adventures, and in this episode, he shares some insights and experiences from his career. 

​Want to learn more about Back Track Adventures?

You can check out their website here: https://www.backtrackadventures.com.au/

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Episode Transcript:

[0:00] So in this episode, I interview Ray Bakker, who's one of the guides and founding

[0:04] members of Backtrack Adventures. And this episode's really, really interesting chat because Ray has been doing high-attitude hiking for over 40 years in various different places around the world. And in this episode, we just dive into a few of his experiences and we talk through some of the insights he has around high-attitude hiking and the different experiences he's faced around the world. A very, very interesting chat for any hiker who's planning on a high-attitude adventure.

[0:34] Music.

[0:41] Hey, my name is Rowan Smith, and I want to welcome you to the Training for Trekking podcast. Now, this is the world's very first podcast, which is entirely dedicated to helping you train, prepare, and conquer your upcoming hike, trek, or mountain adventure. So once a week, I'm going to be giving you quality and practical information on the subjects of physical preparation for trekking, dealing with attitude, and nutrition on the trail, so you can know everything you need to be doing to have the best chance of a safe, enjoyable, and successful adventure. So now you know what you're in for, let's get into today's episode.

[1:16] All right, hello, hello, Ray. Big, big, big welcome to the show. I'm really, really looking forward to having you on board, so great to have you here. Thank you very much, Rowan. So to get into things, I guess, to start with, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, where you're from, and what do you do? Okay. Well, my name's Ray Baker. I'm an ex-owner of Backtrack Adventures, founder and owner, and I retired in 2020. But I've come back in the capacity of just leading high-altitude treks. And I've been trekking since 1979 was my first trek in Nepal and we started up as a commercial operation in 1984 So this is our 40th anniversary and in that time I've probably led close to 80 high altitude treks.

[2:36] Yeah fantastic so um so you got a little bit of a background there so so i guess in um over those 80 high attitude treks like what what types of places have you been uh predominantly in the himalaya, um probably read over a little over 60 in the himalaya mainly in nepal uh but also bhutan Sikkim, Indian, Himalaya, and I've done, I think, 13 ascents of Kilimanjaro as well, the highest mountain in Africa.

[3:19] And things like the Inca Trail, I've done Kinabalu in Borneo, um uh highest peak in morocco too cool in the atlas mountains um and i also uh in a commercial sense commercial trekking sense um i call anything over 4 000 meters high altitude.

[3:53] Okay good to know so so that'll be the perspective that we're looking through today for for the listeners um i can't convert that to feet for our people over in the us off the top of my head but 4 000 meters will work with it so so i guess with um with all of those different hikes you've done and all these different places in the world just out of curiosity what have been are there any particular favourite adventures at High Attitude you've had over the years or places to be and any reason for those favourites? Well, some particular favourites, of course, Kilimanjaro.

[4:30] It's probably not as visually attractive as the Himalaya, but the challenge on summit day, I always find a great attraction. Um it's just uh i say to clients um the trek itself is not that hard um but summit day on kilimanjaro is the hardest day of your life and and uh that's always been a big attraction for me in the himalaya um i love the mount everest area uh in particular my favorite part of the The Mount Everest area is the Gokyo Valley.

[5:13] Drop-dead beautiful scenery, great views of Mount Everest, and quieter trails, a lot less traffic than going to Mount Everest Base Camp. But there's been many, many favourites. Probably my favourite overall trek has probably actually been in the Indian Himalaya. I think the big attraction for that one, although it wasn't what I would call extremely high altitude, it only went up to about 4,200 metres, what we really enjoyed about it was the fact we could go into a country with over 2 billion people and for two weeks all we saw was the people in one village, one small village and a few goat herds. And that was probably been my best track, most enjoyable.

[6:12] But, yeah, anywhere that gets me off the beaten track and I have the philosophy that if I'm enjoying this, other people will as well. Yeah.

[6:30] And over the years, obviously you've got a big background here and I imagine you've seen many, many different things on these trips you've led and been on yourself, but over the years of guiding people up on these high-attitude adventures, have you seen any changes in regards to just generally people's attitude, like perception, maybe preparations for these types of things? Well, the big difference now that we're in the digital age, information is much more easily attained. So people, I find people are generally better prepared, particularly in terms of clothing and equipment and fitness as well. And particularly in Australia, most trekking clients have already been overseas. So they've had travel experience and overall, I find that people are better prepared. Mentally and mentally and physically as well. Yeah.

[7:49] I imagine, yeah, when you say the information there, I imagine there's probably a bit of a difference between people who potentially went in pretty blind previously and maybe read a story of this and that or read a magazine article and someone who's spent hours and hours on YouTube going through videos of people on the trips and reading blood articles and this and that. Yeah, I imagine it'll be night and day in regards to that difference. Exactly. So I guess when we're looking at these trips, and obviously people on this podcast are really interested in preparation and being in the best possible position for these types of adventures. So over the years, what are some of the common mistakes you've seen from hikers on these high-attitude adventures and how would you as an operator or as a guide help people overcome these?

[8:36] Okay my main observation in um other people that is people not in my trekking group is, lack of acclimatization so uh for example kilimanjaro um some people do kilimanjaro in five days, that is three and a half up and one and a half down. Now, with those trekkers, their success rate on Kilimanjaro, depending on where you're getting your information from, but it's somewhere between 50 and 60%.

[9:24] And I'd had 20 years high altitude experience before I first went to Kilimanjaro and I had a look at it and the altitude and I knew straight away that if I followed that sort of itinerary So up to half the group wouldn't get on top. And my ambition then and now is to get every single client on top of Kilimanjaro, partly because of the massive expense for the airfares alone flying to Africa from Australia. And so I devised a formula to give everybody the best chance to get on top, and that meant a nine-day trek.

[10:26] Seven-and-a-half up and one-and-a-half down. And, of course, there's people who have illnesses unrelated to altitude or they have injuries and they don't get on top. But with people leaving the high camp to make the ascent of the summit of Kilimanjaro, we have almost 100% success rate in the very, very high 90s. So, and also, I've observed people on the summit of Kilimanjaro who are really ill and they're being dragged, supported by a couple of guides up to the top. They get to the summit, they sit down, their head in their hands, and they're there for a couple of minutes, then they've got to go down. And that experience is not what I would call a holiday experience.

[11:39] So I have a belief that I want my clients to get on top, remember it all, and enjoy it all, and take it all in. So, yeah, I think the acclimatisation over a number of days is absolutely essential. And, of course, we have the same thing in Nepal. If you compared our high-altitude tricks to other companies, ours are always longer. Now, this stems from my own experience.

[12:20] I had my first case of high-altitude sickness on my very first trek. That was the Annapurna Circuit, and the high point to wrong passes. For our American friends, it's about 17,700 metres.

[12:40] In metric, it's 5,400 metres, something like that. and I had to turn back at about 3,500 metres. I was extremely ill and that was a big tap on the shoulder that, yeah, if you go too high too quick, because other people I was with, they were fine. And because acclimatisation, you don't know how you're going to go until you get there, because it's not reliant to a large extent on your age, your fitness, general health. It's your own personal metabolism. And my metabolism, I'm what I call the lowest common denominator. I don't acclimatise as well as others. So, our rate of ascent is based on what I can achieve, and if I can achieve it, everyone else can too.

[13:56] And then, obviously, you've done lots of these adventures all around the world. And I think it will be really, really interesting just to dive into, you know, I guess some of the differences or specifics around different areas of the world for high-attitude hiking. So, looking at the different sort of, I guess, cultures or areas that you've done these adventures in, have you seen any major differences in how different cultures approach high-attitude hiking?

[14:27] Well, I find people that I've encountered that live in higher altitude remote areas, places like Nepal, India, the Highlanders, and the same with the people that live on the slopes of Kilimanjaro, are just wonderful, welcoming people. With a they share a culture of friendliness and hospitality to strangers and that of course filters through to our local guides and it is one of the great joys of traveling to high altitude areas it's not only the scenery it's also the people and I don't see a big difference between the cultures.

[15:30] And, you know, there's a strong shared character of them is the friendly hospitality. And also our guides in wherever we go to high altitude are so experienced. And I say to people on the first day of a trek.

[15:58] Just give our guides one hour walking with you and they'll know more about you than you know yourself. And, yeah, it's travel in general, you know, the cultures is a big part of it, but particularly mountain people are just sensational.

[16:24] And then do you have any, I guess, again, looking at different parts, different areas of hiking around the world, would you have any practical or specific tips for high altitude in different areas? So for example, Nepal or Tanzania with Kili or Bhutan or yeah,

[16:44] any specific tips for particular parts of the world? Okay, well, to look at countries individually, first of all, you need to get the right pre-departure health information, as opposed to, you know, what vaccinations you're likely to need, What particular strains of some illnesses are found in certain destinations is if you need to take antibiotics if you get ill.

[17:28] But there's some common threads between different areas and different treks, and health preparation is a very important one, and so is fitness. I think the fitter you are, the more you'll enjoy the adventure. And don't be in a hurry. If you go into high altitude, you know, oh, look, you might say to yourself, oh, I've only got two weeks for this holiday. So therefore, instead of doing this trek in the recommended 10 days, I'm going to do it in eight. Well, then you're leaving yourself open to potential altitude sickness, you know. Also other preparations, I think, you know, clothing and equipment, is very important, the right choice. And if you're going to go with a commercial operator.

[18:39] Don't look at the first price you see. Look at the inclusions, what you get on that price. And an extra price, if it includes, it's more expensive because they take a couple of days longer to acclimatise.

[18:55] Well, you know, health and safety is more important than saving a few bucks.

[19:07] Absolutely. And I guess I'm going to fire a couple of questions now that everyone, the listeners, always, always love and nice, easy ones. But yeah, very, very, very easy to answer and very, very practical. So do you personally have any favourite meals or favourite snacks that you like to have on these high attitude adventures? Well yeah i follow um i follow what i call a light diet and that means as soon as it gets light i start eating um and um of course a big breakfast at the start of the day is essential You know, eat more than you would normally eat at home because you're going to burn it up. And snacks I love, like trail mixes, dried nuts, dried fruit. I eat a lot of chocolate for that mid-meal energy boost.

[20:15] And, you know, there's not many foods that I don't eat. But in particular, when I am trekking, it's your complex carbohydrates what I find are really important with that longer, slower release of energy for the endurance-type activity that you're doing, you know. So rice, pasta, noodles, breads, things like that, you know. In sort of remote high-altitude areas, you're going to find it difficult to get a lot of fresh fruit and vegetables, you know. But in the course of a two-week trek, you're not going to get scurvy. So I think the bulk food, a lot of it, is possibly more important than your high-nutrient food. Type meals, you know, but big bowls of pasta, big bowls of rice I love and it's really important to eat that type of stuff, you know.

[21:26] It drinks, you know, I'll just go back to food again. I think that is your fuel. You don't go into an adventurous type activity and look upon food as a gourmet treat. You need to look upon it as fuel and you need to keep fuelled up and keep eating and a lot of it. You're going to burn it off. You're not going to put on weight. No problems there.

[21:56] So and that has to be counted with there's a mild early warning symptom of altitude sickness. There's a number of them, but one of them is loss of appetite.

[22:12] I think the lack of the oxygen, you know, in the air does affect your body. So some people have loss of appetite, but I find that it's not a complete loss of appetite. It's only certain foods that you cannot face, you know, but you'll find there's

[22:32] always something that you can eat, whether it might be just soup. It might be plain rice it might be just sweets or chocolate or whatever but you just get into in as much of it into you as you can then similar question like let's talk about gear and equipment because again hikers all laugh this so do you have any particular must have pieces of equipment or here that you'd recommend to a high altitude hiker oh yes well you know the cold uh to give you an idea um the air temperature alone uh on the summit of kilimanjaro is somewhere between minus 10 and minus 15. Now if there's a breeze then you get the windchill factor right so the uh you might get a fine day, you might get a really, really windy, cold, black day.

[23:40] So in terms of clothing and equipment, I say to people, in terms of weather, I, Expect the best, but prepare for the worst. So the most important layer is the layer worn against the body, thermal underwear. And the best I find is merino wool.

[24:04] And depending on where I'm trekking, I may have two layers of thermal underwear. And then you have your fleece layers. maybe a light fleece and maybe a heavier fleece and then you have your shell garment your windproof waterproof jacket that goes over the top of everything and traps the heat in um you know you need a warm beanie for the your head a lot of heat lost through the top of the head you need warm gloves i suggest um for something like kilimanjaro you have a minimum of two layers of gloves, a thin layer and then a thick thermal layer over the top, yeah, and something to, you need a jacket. Your shell jacket should also have a hood, a high collar, velcro around the sleeves, drawstring around the waist area so that it closes completely and traps all your body heat in there.

[25:23] Yeah and boots boots well they're probably the most important item of equipment and um if you're going to do an extended trek in in remote areas on rough trails then i would go into a specialist outdoor shop and get your boots properly fitted uh wearing socks um and uh you know i wouldn't buy a pair of boots online i would always try them on in a shop i think it's it's it's vital and um, my second most uh vital item of equipment is my trekking poles um correctly used with the right technique i think they've extended my trekking life um for a couple of decades i think uh particularly the support they give you going downhill. And if you use them correctly going uphill, you transfer a lot of the weight into your upper body and take it away from your legs as well.

[26:32] Which is, I find, vital as well. So, you know, I'm blessed living in Brisbane because only 15 minutes drive from the city centre We've got, well, we call it a mountain. I think it's only about 500 metres high, but it's large. It's got a lot of up and downhill trails, and it's an ideal training area.

[27:00] So I think, yeah, anything you're going to be using, your pack, your clothing, your poles, your boots, get used to them training before you leave. Yeah.

[27:22] And a lot of our, I know our listeners out on this podcast, you know, they have a big background in hiking. You know, they like to get on the weekends, maybe done some multi-days or whatever it may be. But I know there is a good solid chunk of listeners who, you know, I've always had that thought of doing a high-altitude hike one day. They've always dreamt of Everest Base Camp or Kili or something like that. But realistically, they live absolutely nowhere near any mountains, whether they're in Australia and they're completely, you know,

[27:52] no access to altitude, whether they're over and somewhere else and they're just in the flatlands. If they're in this situation where they have always dreamt about a high-altitude hike but lives absolutely nowhere near the mountains, what words of advice would you give them? Do the best you can with what you've got to work with.

[28:14] That is, all movement, all training is good. If you only have a flat area, if you live in Central Australian without a mountain in sight, still get out and walk. Engage the services of a fitness professional. Tell them what you're doing and they could recommend some good exercises is to do at home to strengthen your legs and your back. Yeah, just do the best you can and do it on a regular basis. I mean, if you go trekking, you're going to be walking day after day after day after day. When you're at home in your normal life, you may not have the time to do it, right? So you just do as much as you can.

[29:16] But what I do myself is I exercise every day. And if I'm not doing a longer training exercise, I'll get up half an hour earlier and go for a brisk walk for half an hour before breakfast. It all helps. It all adds an extra layer to your preparation. Everything you do, whether it's your training, whether it's what you eat, the amount of recovery you have, how well you sleep, it all helps. And then you mentioned at the start of the episode that you've got a long history

[30:03] with backtrack adventures and obviously lead trips and guide trips from these days. Could you just tell us a little bit more about backtrack adventures? Yeah, who they are, what they do, and yeah, just tell us a bit more about them.

[30:17] Okay, well, the genesis of backtrack was actually in 1982 when I did the Annapurna Circuit.

[30:27] I asked a mate to go with me Jim who ended up being my business partner so we did the Annapurna circuit together made a lot of mistakes but we couldn't believe what great adventure it was and we thought well look if we like this other people well well as well so we we hummed and hard for a couple of years and didn't stop talking about it and then one day we decided right let's do it so we advertised to take some people over the Annapurna around the Annapurna circuit and the response was fantastic we we got we needed 10 people but we actually got 30 so we divided it into two groups a day apart on the trail and um uh made a lot of mistakes but if it.

[31:25] Uh we had experienced guides with us so uh the mistakes we would be made um uh were lessened by their advice and um so from there we we planned other trips um in nepal nepal was the only tour operation that we did for about the first five years we also opened up a clothing and equipment shop at the same time and and then we also got into other areas.

[32:01] We got into Africa in a big way we still are with safaris and And we also started going around the world, different trekking areas. But we also opened up another division of Backtrack, and that was our retail division. So, you know, we can book flights, book hotels, arrange travel insurance. We used to arrange a visa service before it became easier to do online. And we started to specialise in those hard-to-travel destinations like Africa, South America.

[32:48] In the late 90s, we developed a big expertise in cruising. So that's a big part of our operation as well. So we can send anybody anywhere in the world and arrange it. And so we sell a lot of other companies' trips as well. But we have our core high-altitude trekking as well in the Himalaya and Kilimanjaro. Yeah. And then if people wanted to find out a little bit more about Backtrack, check out the trips, you know, learn a little bit more about what you offer. Where should they go? Where's the easiest place to find out more? That's our website, www.backtrackadventures.com.au. But also we're at the end of the phone as well.

[33:59] We don't put people on hold. You don't have to press buttons to talk to a particular area. You call, the phone will be picked up. Yeah, fantastic. Well, what I'll do is I'll leave details for that in the show notes below of the episode. So if anyone is interested in checking them out, just go down below the video, check out the notes, and you'll be able to find there. But all in all, Ray, it's been really, really great having you on today. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on, share some background, what you do, some great piece of advice. And yeah, I really do hope some of the words of wisdom can inspire a few people out there. And yeah, I think a lot of people get some great information from today's chat. So thank you so much for coming on. I really, really appreciate it. Oh, Rowan, thanks very much. I really appreciate the invitation. Thank you very much.