Interviewing James Appleton From Seek To Do More

In this episode, I interview James Appleton, another online coach who specialises in working with hikers. Inside, he shares some of his insights, philosophies and ideas around physical preparation for the trail. 

​Find More Of James Here:

• Personal Instagram: @jamesappleton46
• Business Instagram: @seektodomore 
• Website: www.seektodomore.com

Episode Chapters:

0:12 
Introduction to James Appleton
1:37 
Journey to the Outdoors
6:56 
Strength Training Philosophy
12:01 
Athleticism in Hiking
13:59 
Nutrition for Hikers
18:12 
Winter Hiking Training
21:00 
The Importance of Guiding
24:04 
Final Thoughts on Hiking Preparation
27:07 
Insight into Seek2DoMore

Episode Transcript: 

[0:00] Hello, hello, ladies and gentlemen. So in today's episode, I interview James

[0:04] Appleton from Seek2DoMore, who is another online coach who specializes in working with hikers. And inside this episode, he shares some really interesting insights in regards to his training for hiking and how he helps hikers prepare and get in the best possible position for their adventures. So we dive into some interesting philosophies, some approaches, and some great tips that he gives for the hiking community. So with that being said, let's get into the episode. All right. Hello, hello, James, and welcome to the show, mate.

[0:40] That's great to be here, Rowan. How are you doing? Yeah, I'm really, really good. And I'm really, really looking forward to today because, yeah, it's always so good to have other coaches doing cool things in the space in regards to outdoor adventures and hiking and all of that.

[0:57] And for context for the listeners, you know, me and James just kind of ran into each other or came across each other relatively recently. And I thought, you know what, this would be cool to get you on the podcast, get to know each other a little bit just for our respects, but also, yeah, talk about what you do. So really, really looking forward to it. Yeah, same, man. When I saw you on social media, I was like, Oh, he's a what he's saying is correct. You don't really hear a lot of people talking about strength training for hiking on social media. And I was watching your content. I'm like, everything he's saying is right. Correct, correct, correct. So we we are very aligned in our in our message and our kind of vibe in terms of how you get prepared to enjoy the outdoors. So yeah, I'm looking forward to chatting with you for sure.

[1:38] Yeah fantastic so i guess to i guess to kick things off then um yeah do you just want to just give us a bit of background just tell us a little bit about yourself who you are where you're from um and yeah what you do yeah sure i'm on the other side of the world i'm in the state of new york here in the united states i live in the adirondack mountains in the town called lake placid it's a small town right in the middle of just the biggest um outdoors paradise you could ever imagine here in the Adirondack Mountain. So I love hiking, strength training. Those are like the two things that my life is all about. And I've merged them very successfully in terms of my own pursuits and then my business as well. So that's pretty much me in a nutshell, married, three daughters, house of girls, living the life.

[2:25] How good. And I know we do have a lot of listeners over your side of the world, but also like living locally to you. So, yeah, it'll be quite interesting for people who might have you in your local area. So, I guess, yeah, just you want to tell us a little bit of background about, I guess, your outdoor pursuits. What are your favorite outdoor things that you do? And what would you say is the best outdoor adventure you've been on before? Yeah, so I grew up here where I live right now. My wife and I, as adults, moved back to this area where we grew up. So as I said, like the Adirondack Park where I live is, it's six million acres of public and private land. It's larger than the five largest, um... National parks combined here in the United States. So it's a huge, huge area and it's unlike anything else. So I grew up in an area like that where outdoors culture is just a part of life. But as any kid who grows up in small town USA, you're just ready to get out. Like you don't even notice that you have mountains all around you, lakes, rivers, you know, like jumping in rivers is just like what you did in the summer, but you don't appreciate it until you leave. So grew up, never really caring so much about hiking in particular, which is like my big thing right now in my entire life.

[3:50] And then once it's gone, you've realized, oh, man, this is an amazing thing. So I was actually touring in a band throughout my 20s. And every time we'd get to the West Coast, I'd see the mountains. I'd be like, this is amazing. These huge mountains. Like, God, how good is the outdoors? And I think to myself, well, you grew up in an area, but you never cared about the outdoor stuff where you grew up. So that's why you kind of like it so much. So I kind of had these realizations while on the road and then eventually came back here. And it was time to actually pursue the mountains and pursue hiking and pursue climbing them. Because growing up, you know, I played sports. I did all the things, but I was never in mountain hiking shape. It's a very different animal when you're just walking straight up mountains, which is kind of how all of our trails here in the Adirondack Park go. Like they're not great trails. They just pretty much find a drainage and go straight up. So you get in really good shape. But if you're not in shape for that, hiking sucks. It's not fun. So that's why growing up, I just never really enjoyed it.

[4:50] And then later in life, after we had moved back to the area, I went through this big weight loss transformation via lifting weights and just eating meat and vegetables the real boring way, but just did it for a very long time. Lost a bunch of weight, got really strong and just, you know, kind of did it the old fashioned way. And then all of a sudden I decided to go hike a mountain one day on my own just to finish this. There's these little hiking challenges where I live, where, you know, you hike this group of mountains and it's, you get a patch or like that sort of thing. It's just, it's just kind of part of the hiking culture here. And I climbed one of the mountains, this mountain called Ampersand.

[5:32] And I got to the summit and I was just like, oh, I can't believe I was able to do that. And I don't feel like death right now. Like my heart's not beating out of my chest. My legs aren't on fire. This is a very, you know, medium to larger size hike for the area. Holy crap, I can do this. And that was the realization where that fact that I could do this is what opened the doors to the outdoors for me. So it was because of what strength training did for me, it opened the doors to the outdoors. And from there, I mean, it was just like it was on. So over the last decade, that's been life is just climbing mountains, hiking, doing the stuff. You know, I guide, I do all those things, but it was really the strength training portion that opened the doors of that of those adventures for me and from here it's it's basically all hiking winter hiking summer hiking spring fall i've done some backpacking but the culture where i live is very much peak bagging you know where you're just climbing mountains over and over again, there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of mountains to climb where i live so a world of adventure and then there's obviously water stuff you know paddling and kayaking and stuff and we into that mountain biking. So there's other things I do as well in the outdoors because this is where I live, but, uh, hiking by far is the, is the, the bread and butter for what I like to do.

[6:56] And let's, let's talk a little bit about physical preparation for hikers. Um, and, you know, obviously that's what we love on this show. So as a coach who works in this space, do you have any particular philosophies that you believe in when it comes down to physical preparation for hikers, I have a lot. I mean, I feel the majority of this kind of world of hiking puts all the focus on endurance and conditioning and cardio and not on like, let's make our muscles stronger and our joints stronger so that they can go further. So i'm a big believer in pure strength training because that's what showed me that i could do it so in terms of like philosophies yeah i think strength first and cardio conditioning second is the is the way to properly prepare your entire body and as somebody who does a lot of squatting and a lot of dead lifting i find like these high bang for your buck movements where they're strengthening your back which is holding your backpack they're strengthening your core which is holding your backpack and walking. They're strengthening your glutes, your quads, your legs, your joints, everything all in one movement.

[8:03] Uh, to me, it's like, why would I do anything else? Uh, you know, and you do a, you know, you do a big heavy set of squats at, you know, 10 reps at a max set. Your heart is beating through your chest and all of your muscles are on fire. Like you just did an absolutely massive set. To me, I have found that that gets you in better shape for climbing mountains than anything else in any sort of running or cardio because a your heart's already getting trained as are all of your bodies under load or all the muscles in your body under load so i have found that that kind of heavy strength training for me and for my clients has been the the game changer in terms of preparing you for the demands of the demands of the backcountry especially here where i live like i said like the mountains the trails go just straight up for better or worse that's just what they do you know we don't have any mountains here that have any sort of switch backing up it's just straight shot um so that is what i found to be kind of the the bread and butter in terms of getting getting getting trained up to climb out climb mountains.

[9:09] I'm sure you'd probably do something similar i would have to imagine you know you're focused on strength so getting stronger for these things you know your conditioning is going to improve by just the pursuit of strength but to me it's like when you pursue strength in that regard everything improves as opposed to like just your heart rate or just you know one or two little muscles yeah absolutely and i yeah i definitely talk a lot about strength training on this podcast and after 380 episodes now there's probably a good 150 if not 200 talking in one way or another about strength training so yeah there you go um so uh so i guess on on the flip side of that you know obviously a big believer in strength training for hikers um in your experience um you know what what is one other thing um around physical preparation which you think maybe isn't done so well in the hiking world.

[10:05] Hmm. Um, the, the idea that hiking is actually an athletic movement and an athletic endeavor, I think is something that gets overlooked because we kind of, a lot of people have this thought process that, you know, it's not athletic. You're just walking, you're just doing these things. But once you get into the back country, man, like things are different and you're trying to maneuver your body over rugged terrain, you're climbing up and over blow down over boulders under blow down. You have to hoist yourself up, hoist yourself down. You know, all these things are athletic movements and you're doing them while wearing a heavy backpack, right?

[10:42] So I think people do themselves a disservice by not building up that athleticism within their training to prepare themselves to be more prepared when they do get out onto the trail. You know, again, And I think people revert to this idea of like, let me just go running or do yoga or do Pilates to get ready for hiking. And sure, they all can have their place in the scheme of preparing yourself. But I think, you know, from my perspective and my experience, training, getting this like top end strength mixed with the athleticism really sets you up to do any any sport, period. And to me, hiking falls in line with that because like, look where you are. Like you're in the backcountry. you know you're you're on your own it's it's time to you know the the mountains don't care about you like things can go wrong quickly so the the more athletic you can move and the stronger you are the more likely you are going to succeed and to enjoy your day out on the trail because ultimately like it's all about having a great time when we're out there because we're voluntarily putting ourselves in hard places right so being able to have the fulfillment and the joy we're looking for, is going to lead to a better experience and by being able to move athletically and train yourself accordingly to do that, I think you're setting yourself up for success.

[12:01] Yeah, absolutely. And one of my biggest pet peeves that drives me a little bit mental is, you know, when you talk to so many hikers, or at least I have over the years who, you know, they've maybe worked with, you know, a local trainer or whatever it may be, who, you know, is all well and good and nothing wrong with that. But a lot of trainers who, from the outside, you know, they're not hikers. And they look at hiking, they're like, well, it's just a long walk. And they're like, well, I'll just train you like, you know, that. And as you sort of said, don't consider it as an actual athletic endeavor. There's a lot more that goes into it than just walking for a few hours.

[12:35] So, um, so yeah, no, fully, fully agree there. I mean, that's it. It's like, it is an endeavor that in like, if you don't know, you don't know. And you can't, you know, it's like, it's cool. It's like, people don't realize that it's more than just, you know, going on a, like a nice gentle trail where you, you know, might walk your dog on like when you're climbing mountains or you're in the back country or it's rugged. I mean, it's different. So, you know, that, and that's why, that's why, you know, around here, the people I work with here in the United States and Canada, Like they come to me because I actually do the thing. I go out there because I hear it time and time again, and you probably do too, that they're like, oh, I worked with somebody, but they just didn't really understand this hiking or backpacking thing. Like they just don't get it. So that's why they come to people like myself and yourself, because we do get it because it is different. We view it from a different perspective because we live it right alongside all of them. So I think there's something very pure and innocent to that. And that's what I think is probably why people are attracted to, you know, services like you provide, services like I provide for that purpose.

[13:40] So we talked a little bit about strength training. We talked a little bit about like what you don't feel like is done so well, which is, you know, just considering this athleticism. On top of all that, like, is there anything else that you feel like is just not done enough in the world of training for hiking or considered enough or anything like that?

[14:00] Yeah, I think I think the from like a diet and nutrition standpoint, it's also just side note, it's fun talking about like performance for this sort of endeavor right now. So I appreciate the questions, but I think from a performance standpoint, I think protein is something that gets so lost, even especially within like the backpacking world, especially when you have people who are doing long distance trails. And, you know, I understand people talk about, you know, how much your pack weighs and, you know, protein is heavy. But I'm telling you, I mean, you could be just as intentional with the food you buy that you put in your pack that's high protein so that you're going to actually recover each night before you, you know, you hit 20 mile days back to back to back to back.

[14:41] I just feel you will perform better if you're also focused on recovery the night follow or the night following your hike to continue each day. But I think in the backpacking world, especially it just gets lost, right? Like people want the, the lightweight, you know, quick, um, quick carbs that don't weigh anything, but ultimately don't really provide the nutrition that they're actually need. And I would venture to say, and I would throw out there that they will perform better if they focus more on nutrition for performance on the trail, the same way you would focus on nutrition for training for, you know, an event. If you're running a marathon, you're doing a powerlifting meet, you're doing an Ironman, whatever it is, when you focus on the nutrition, which is your fuel, I think you'll go better, you'll go further, you'll go more effectively. And I think that's something that's pretty lost in the hiking world is the idea that protein can also be consumed on the trail to help you have a better time out there and your body perform better. Because that's when that's when we have the best times right when we leave the trail and we feel good we don't feel broken and run down and making sure your nutrition is on point is going to, allow that way more than you know if you just kind of choose this simple easy thing that's easy to pack and you know high dopamine and tastes good but it's not really helping you in terms of uh getting from point a to point b out on the trail.

[16:02] It's funny enough you mentioned that because uh because i i fully agree um and literally about an hour ago or two hours ago i was recording a solo episode podcast episode on on this very subject in the sense of talking about sometimes hikers fall into this trap of like okay we want to lighten up our pack absolutely but sometimes it ends up being at the expense of things that may actually make a hike more enjoyable or make my hike easier and nutrition and making sure you have nutrition for recovery is falls right into that. So that's funny enough. Cause literally I was, it did a whole episode on that. Um, just before. So, so there you go. How good. Like I love it, man. It's funny that you were doing that today because, um, I've been working on this next writing project of mine and, um, literally was talking about it in my writing session this morning, protein for backpacking, because again, it's, you know, like you said, what's something that's forgotten and it's forgotten, which is very strange. But I also think, I honestly think it's not for, it's not, I don't think that it's forgotten by choice. I think it's actually forgotten by just innocently people don't know, just naivete. You know, they just don't realize that, oh, you actually can perform better and feel better and your body can recover better. And you don't have to lose all your muscle mass when you go backpacking, right? Like you don't have to lose muscle. You can be very intentional with what you're doing, what you're eating so that you minimize that.

[17:29] And then, you know, everything, you know, everything snowballs on itself, especially with the protein thing, like, and you're not going to lose the muscle mass, your metabolism is not going to go down, like all these things that happen from long distance backpacking, they don't have to be that way. And I really do think it's people just don't really know. So I think it's great that you are putting that information out there and letting people know that there is a better way if you want to perform better and want to set yourself up for more success in just general health, right? Like we all love hiking, but life goes on regardless of whether you go on the trail. So like, let's set ourselves up for health period. And then let hiking be, you know, the secondary thing that we do because it, you know, ignites our souls. But I think it's great that you're talking about that as well.

[18:13] So the next question is actually pretty well timed in the sense that you know before we started recording you know you were you were telling me that you've been shoveling out a bit of snow this morning and i was complaining about the heat over in australian summer so let's talk about snowy, hiking or snow and cold hiking because we don't get that much much of that in australia but obviously a lot of places in the world people do so if you had a hiker um who was coming to see you and they were like hey you know what i've got some hikes eyed off for winter um it's going to be snowy it's going to be cold whatever may be would there be any differences in the training that you would recommend to them compared to the training you might recommend just to you know a more mild weather hike um i wouldn't really change much when it comes to the training you know you're the in terms of hiking i mean especially where i live here winter hiking it's it is not the same as summer hiking in the sense of like they are two different worlds i don't you know some people might be like oh they're like brother and sister i think they're just like neighbors they're like they live on the same road but they're not related they're different people winter hiking is just a totally different animal and i don't honestly like there's trade-offs right so in terms of training winter is easier on your joints in your body yeah you're carrying you're wearing snowshoes or you're carrying a heavy pack if you're like if you're just wearing micro spikes and your snowshoes are on your pack, you know, if the trail warrants that.

[19:39] But in terms of the actual training, no, I actually don't switch anything up. I don't switch anything up for that reason. And again, winter hiking is actually easier on your body on a good day in terms of like the wear and tear that comes from. Because, you know, like the trails filled in, it's a lot of times they're like little snow sidewalks. Yeah, breaking trail is a totally different animal. Breaking trail will require a lot more conditioning and, you know, a lot more step ups and that sort of thing. But overall, I actually wouldn't I wouldn't do much different and I don't do much different for winter hiking versus summer in terms of the the actual training for it. No. Do you?

[20:16] Oh that's fair enough and yeah to be honest not not a huge amount um i'm pretty similar like it's all very very similar principles and you know depending on you know as you sort of said if someone's breaking trail or whatever there may be some particular things they may want to lean into but uh but no i'm very very similar so that uh no that makes complete sense so you also mentioned that um that you would not only uh a coach who helps hikers with this training but you also do a bit of guiding as well so i guess on that front do you have any specific hiking tips or techniques that you feel like every hiker, you know, should know, or many people might get a benefit out?

[20:53] Yeah, I mean, honestly, I'm a big believer in paying for information. So for example, even if you're going somewhere new, or you're very experienced, and you can, you know, like you're very experienced in the backcountry, I still think your first time going somewhere, if you hire a guide you're going to get way more than your money's worth in terms of just straight up questions answered for you you know you'll learn so much more about the area you're going even just with one day of guiding you'll just get so you'll just get all that information so for me i'm very big on just making that happen and taking the shortest route possible to the information and the experience that i'm seeking but uh that's my one thing and i recommend it to anyone anywhere they're going first time you're going there yeah just hire a guide like spend the money it's going to be worth it because you're going to get so much more knowledge than you had no matter how much internet research that you do some people may disagree and that's cool i've just that's the experience that's what i found in speaking with so many people that's what i have found to be the case every time now in terms of like actual preparation though for guiding.

[22:00] Yeah, lean on, lean on your guide if you do hide a higher one. But in terms of other preparation, you know, it's same, same old stuff, right? Make sure you did your homework, you should still look at the map, you should still have an idea where we're going, what to expect what to look for the same, you know, kind of pre hike homework should be done. And even though you have a guide to do that thinking, it's still going to behoove you to do that homework, know where you are, have the map, because, you know, the guide could slip and fall and have an accident the same way you could. You know, the mountains, man, things change, things, things can go haywire real quick out there in the backcountry. So it behooves you to actually do that homework. And I have had so many clients who they, I mean, they know the name of the mountains we're hiking and where the trailhead is, but they know absolutely zero about what to expect. And I do, I can tell just by like having some quick conversations at the trailhead.

[22:54] So I'll go through the map. I'll go through what we're, what, what the plan is and kind of give them that rundown. Cause like I said, even as a guide, there's easily a time where I am dependent on the person I'm guiding to save my life. If something actually went wrong with me. um so it just helps everyone to know so that would be my my biggest piece of advice would to be still do your pre-hike homework you know check the weather know your map know where you're going have an idea what what what to look for landmarks all that stuff because it's going to make everybody's life easier and just a better day and you know more therefore you have more experience now and you'll get more out of the trip as well does that answer your question i hope i answered it accordingly no 100 that makes total sense and i think that's such a good point um And even like outside of all just the practicalities and safety and, you know, all of that.

[23:42] Just I think you mentioned like just the enjoyment factor of just kind of knowing a little bit more about where you're at, what's coming up, what's going on and all of that. It just, for me at least, it just helps you be a little bit more immersed in it all.

[23:54] So, yeah, no, that's very interesting. So, I guess, you know, we've covered some good stuff at this stage through the podcast, but beyond what we talked about so far today.

[24:05] Is there anything else you feel like you'd like to add anything we kind of haven't covered any other sort of points that you feel like you know would be useful to kind of have a little bit of a chat about while we're here, not really I mean I think we've talked about a lot of good stuff I think for me, the thing that I'm actually interested in knowing is have you hiked have you ever hiked over here in the United States and what are what were your places that you went to I'm curious to know from my perspective, No, so I haven't really done any hiking in the States because I was over, I've been to the States for about two and a half weeks last year, two years ago for a wedding. I was in California for a wedding and we were planning on doing a little bit of hiking. I can't remember what national park it was in. It was north in the Redwoods somewhere. Okay, awesome. Very cool. And we had a van, we were cruising around. We're like, oh, we'll just do a few day hikes because, you know, we're just here and all our bags are wedding stuff as opposed to hiking stuff.

[25:03] But then we got there and then I was sick as a dog. I was so, so bad. You know, you just get the sweats and the fevers and all of that. So I was like, we're just going to sit in the forest and enjoy the redwoods, which was awesome. But I'm not moving a step. You got to see the trees, though. That's great. Yeah. And that blew me away because we have some pretty cool trees in Australia, but that's just so different. And they were huge. And I didn't realize how huge they were. So that was super cool. Cool. Yeah. And then I had all the fun with the beers and all of that. And my wife was freaking out a little bit. But no. So it was a good trip. But I haven't actually done any hiking over there as of this church. Yeah, sure. No. I figure you may have been here at some point. But very cool. Yeah. And in terms of like, you know, hiking and this and that, like, I guess my thought process is the more preparation you do before you get on trail, the better off you're going to be, the more successful you're going to be. Because ultimately, that's what we're here for. and control what you can control which is obviously your equipment your preparedness but first and foremost your physical fitness so that you get out there and you actually can get yourself from point a to point b because you know what it doesn't really matter what's in your backpack if your legs can't take you there so i think when i think in the backpacking and hiking world in general.

[26:24] There is there's an increasing amount of people recognizing this, but there is by far way more of a focus on, you know, what's the new fancy hot gear that I can purchase gear, gear, gear. And then physical fitness gets, you know, kind of falls by the wayside. But I really think if people focus more on making sure they're physically sound for the trip that they're going on, they're going to be way more successful regardless of what's in their backpack. So basically, I just feel like people should, you know, I want to encourage people to put as much energy, if not a little bit more energy into your physical preparation. And that includes the nutrition for the trail, as you do for what's in your backpack. I think that will go a long way.

[27:07] Yeah absolutely and i think uh for the people listening to this um i think they will be nodding along with you because anyone listening to the training for trekking podcast i think you share pretty similar beliefs so uh so i think yeah you're speaking speaking their language there which is awesome amen so um so yeah so with all that being said then tell us a little bit more about you know what specifically you do with uh with seek to do more with your with your business um yeah well what do you do day to day how's it all run how's it operate just tell us a little bit more about it all.

[27:37] Yeah, sure. I mean, it's a, you know, it's a one-on-one coaching program that I do and have done for quite some time. And, you know, I help people get, become the strongest versions of themselves for hiking, for the mountains, but also for their everyday life too.

[27:52] I just feel like the lessons you learn in the back country, like if you're not also applying these same things to becoming a better version of yourself at home, you're kind of missing the point of the life lessons the mountains have to teach you. So my, you know, my program, my platform, basically, we focus on like getting you strong and fit and conditioned so that you can enjoy your time in the mountains, hiking, backpacking, whatever it is you're going to do mountain biking. Like I have so many different people in different outdoors pursuits that work with me, but then we also go above and beyond to make sure you're also building like the daily habits that build resilience, that build mental toughness so that you can a tackle what you're going to tackle out in the backcountry, but also again, just show up in the world as a, as a more positive and better person with better habits and become the absolute best that you can be. Because I think the mountains bring out the best in everybody. I really genuinely believe that. So I want to bring that same version of you into the four walls of your home too. So I take the, I just take this holistic approach when it comes to fitness, because what I've experienced, as I told you earlier in the podcast.

[28:59] Like strength training is what led me to the outdoors, which is what changed everything about my life top to bottom. So I think if you're missing the bigger picture behind it, you're actually not squeezing all the juice that you possibly can out of what the mountains, what the barbell, what all these things have to teach you. So that's kind of why a lot of my focus is on with seek to do more is on making sure nothing gets left behind. You know, your, your, your life Life is good and your adventures are good, if that makes sense.

[29:32] And then if people did want to get in contact with you and, you know, find your content or even potentially work with you, where's the best place for them to find you? You could find me on Instagram at James Appleton 46, James Appleton on Facebook, at Seek2DoMore on Instagram or just Seek2DoMore.com would be a good place to start for sure. Awesome well what i'll do for for anyone listening who wants to check that out i'll make sure there are the links for all of those in the show notes below so if you just want to scroll down check them out um and you can connect with uh connect with james there but uh but with that being said you know i think this has been a really really awesome episode um james it's been really really interesting just hearing a little bit about some of your insights how you go about things and um and yeah and how you approach this uh very particular area of training and uh and as i said before i think a lot of the listeners um will be would have been nodding their heads along with with a lot of what you said today so so thank you so much for coming on mate i really really do appreciate it and i think um yeah i think a lot of people are going to enjoy this episode, thanks man i'm glad to be invited on the show and i think what you're doing is just absolutely awesome uh much needed in the outdoor space much needed in the hiking and backpacking space keep up the good work it is what you're the message that you're putting out there is the message that I think the entire world of hiking needs to hear. So keep up, keep it up. Fantastic, man. I appreciate that.