Chatting With Gordon From Bushcraft Survival Australia

​In this episode, I chat with Gordon Dedman, Bushcraft Survival Australia's founder, an outdoor bushcraft survival school dedicated to teaching genuine and authentic modern and traditional outdoor living skills through carefully designed educational courses.

Inside, he shares some insights, strategies and experiences to help hikers out in the bush! 

Want to learn more about Bushcraft Survival Australia?

Website: https://bushcraftsurvivalaustralia.com.au/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/BushcraftSurvivalAustralia
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bushcraftsurvivalaustralia/

Episode Transcript

[0:00] In this episode, we talk to Gordon from Bushcraft Survival Australia, and inside he shares some really, really interesting insights around his experience

[0:09] working in the worlds of bushcraft and survival all around the world. We dive into a few very, very interesting topics, which you've never really touched on on this podcast before, but I think it's just so valuable for any hiker who's interested in getting out into the bush, getting out into some slightly more, unexplored places and really just getting into their outdoor adventures. So a fantastic episode, really interesting insights, and I think a lot of people are going to enjoy this. So as that's been said, let's get into it.

[0:37] Music.

[0:44] Hey, my name is Rowan Smith, and I want to welcome you to the Training for Trekking podcast. Now, this is the world's very first podcast, which is entirely dedicated to helping you train, prepare and conquer your upcoming hike, trek or mountain adventure. So once a week I'm going to be giving you quality and practical information on the subjects of physical preparation for trekking, dealing with attitude and nutrition on the trail so you can know everything you need to be doing to have the best chance of a safe, enjoyable and successful adventure. So now you know what you're in for, let's get into today's episode.

[1:20] All right, hello, hello, welcome Gordon to the show. Really, really, really looking forward to having me on board. How are you going today? I'm really great, Rowan. Thanks very much for having me on the program. I'm really excited to sit and have a chat with you.

[1:34] Absolutely. And I'm really excited for this chat today. And as we were sort of saying before we started the recording, I think after so many hundreds of episodes on this podcast, we've never really explored what we're about to explore today. So I think it's going to be really, really interesting to get into. So I guess to kick things off, Do you just want to give us just a bit of background? Could you just tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, where you're from and what do you do?

[1:58] Sure, Rowan. Okay, it's a bit of a varied background, but yep, my name's Gordon Dedman. I'm a senior instructor at Bushcraft Survival Australia, which is an outdoor education school, teachers, bushcraft, survival, varying courses. I've done a lot of training overseas for that. I'm also a military survival instructor, ex-first commando regiment by way of a couple of other units and currently a survival instructor in North Force, which is a regional force surveillance unit in northern Australia, up in Darwin. And we do lots of work in remote areas and we have a lot of Aboriginal soldiers. So I get to spend a lot of time in Aboriginal communities and the groups are the eyes and ears of the north, of which survival plays an important part. I'm also a combat SEER instructor, Survival of Aid, Resist Escape, which is something I teach quite regularly at the Air Force Combat Survival Training School. Different sort of survival that we do in the Army, but it's a tri-service course, but it's about teaching the air crews how to survive sort of mishaps on the ground in a peacetime environment and then, of course, how to evade capture and then affect the survival, in a hostile situation whilst people are trying to hump them down. So we go through those sorts of things.

[3:15] So that's the military side and done a lot of training overseas with bushcraft and survival schools overseas, which are huge in Europe and in the UK, and there's some of the best schools in the world are over there, which is an interesting topic in itself. And, yeah, and so basically I formulated this school. There hasn't been a lot of schools in Australia, and I've been doing that for many years. And the other half of my life, believe me, I was a professional trumpet player, musician. And so I actually went through university and studied as a trumpet player. So I've lived two different lives, sitting and doing theatre shows on one end and then jumping out of helicopters and planes and running around the bush, doing other things, as well as a bit of outdoor guiding here and there in Kakadu and various places and long hikes and that sort of thing with clients and different things. So there's a whole mix of things, really, and bits of martial arts thrown into that jiu-jitsu and kickboxing over the years as well. So it's quite a mixed bag. Absolutely, big things there. So our curiosity, how did that all filter into, I guess, focusing on bushcraft and survival? How did that road go for you?

[4:31] Rowan, I was just, growing up in country New South Wales, I was always interested in the bush and I had an Aboriginal mate. His father was, you know, always talking about, I was just fascinated with Aboriginal culture actually and how people lived. And that which was part of the reason why I wanted to move up to Northern Territory at the time to learn a lot of those skills.

[4:55] And I suppose I was always building rafts and shelters in the creek and, you know, making fires as a kid and doing all the things which a lot of kids don't get to do today because it's all on the devices and things. But in the country, we all had to make our own farm. And I just was always, what if, how do you deal with not much? And I just, I was in scouts and cubs and I just always just loved anything to do with the bush and making, not having equipment, but being able to generate, okay, how do I make that in the bush without having to take an item in the bush? And that led down a path of being interested in survival skills, you know, the SAS Handbook by Lofty Wiseman, a lot of those types of things. And that led me to join the military and the Special Forces, you know, First Commander Regiment. I went in there initially to do some survival, but the military units, it doesn't do loads of survival. You do field craft. It's only certain units that do survival training, and that's SAS and commandos and North Force and the Air Force Combat Survival Training School. That's it. You don't really do specific survival training at all. So that's a specialist course. But I went there to do that.

[6:10] And then, of course, a lot of my trumpet playing took me overseas traveling around, working on the ships, Cunard and that type of thing, the Queen Elizabeth Gauche, that line of ships. And I was lucky enough to do survival training and bushcraft courses all around the world. Some of the top skills after a contract are to stay in that country and do a survival course. And, of course, being over there in Alaska, did lots of hikes and things all around the place and just practicing skills in different countries. Essentially, they're all the same skill sets. It's just the environment and the resources change. And, of course, a couple of hairy situations here and there where some of those skills really came, you know, to help out with some stuff. But, yeah, that's sort of how I sort of got into it. But I just love being in remote places, out in the bush, and I don't really feel comfortable in cities, even though my life as a trumpet player is completely opposite and it's a bit of a contrasting yin and yang, that it's sort of just made life exciting as well and got the best of both worlds.

[7:15] So in the episode today, we're going to be diving into this in a little bit of detail and getting into some topics around survival and bushcraft. But I guess before we get into that, could you just define the difference between survival and bushcraft? That's a great question, Ryan. It's a thorny one. Generally speaking, they're the same skill sets. Survival deals with emergencies. It's something's gone wrong. Predominantly equipment-based and it's some about being getting out of that situation that isolating event whether it's a plane crash vehicle accident being lost navigational area which we call in the military being geographically embarrassed um uh you know losing your way you know broken down vehicle whatever the isolating event it's getting out of that and then back to civilisation essentially in the fastest way possible. And the skill sets are the same, where bushcraft would be the same skill sets but it's a much deeper philosophical connection to the environment, like a far deeper knowledge of plants. Essentially all survival bushcraft skills are Indigenous skills from around the world. The military after World War II, particularly with lots of pilots dying unnecessarily, not from their primary injuries.

[8:42] Lots of people died unnecessarily, so they looked into, or how can we keep people safe once, you know, they, you know, survived the primary incident. And so they looked into doing survival training, which was taking Indigenous skills and codifying them into a manual, very sort of brief overviews of what to do, you know, in shorthand. So that led to survival manuals and enhanced survival training with the military. But bushcraft essentially, which comes from woodcraft, woodsmanship, and really they're just all Indigenous skills. It's just a modern word.

[9:17] And it's taken those sort of, it's the big picture that survival comes from, except bushcraft, which is an emergency. Survival isn't, of course, the biggest thing in his location and rescue, getting rescued, where bushcraft would be about living comfortably in the land with a far deeper sort of, It's a deeper set of skill sets of which sort of survival, you could say, shorthand. It's an emergency, but it has a much deeper philosophical connection with the environment and, you know, being part of it. You're not like survive at all costs, you know, man against, wild man against the bush, which is, of course, anyone that pits himself up like that against the bush, you know, is going to run into trouble because we are. It's about respecting it and working with nature, not against it. And I guess that's probably the biggest thing. It's working with nature at a slower pace and having a deeper connection to it rather than, you know, just trying to get away from it in any way possible or the –.

[10:15] TV shows sort of mention that. And I've got to mention I'm also the survival consultant for alone. So I do all the safety stuff for that, the selection of the areas as well as the contestants and things like that. So a lot of the programs we have is sort of geared towards the survival aspect. But there is a deeper philosophical connection with the bushcraft side. But essentially they are the same skill sets. It's probably a long-winded answer, but it is quite a thorny question, actually. But it's, yeah, and, of course, the words will change, no doubt, in years to come. It will be turned into something else, no doubt.

[10:57] So on this podcast, everyone who's listening to this will be a hiker in one way, shape, or form. So whether they're just going out for day hikes for a few hours, whether they're doing overnighters and multi-days, or even some people doing the more, like, hardcore multi-month adventures, Would there be any particular survival or bushcraft skills that you would recommend that pretty much all hikers, regardless of their situation, should probably be aware of or know or have or however you define them?

[11:27] Well, on our courses, and we have a variety of courses, our fundamental module one and two in the intermediate courses, we always start out teaching people the survival things first, in which even though I said they're essentially similar skill sets, looking at the priorities of survival, which are the plan acronym, protection, location, acquisition and navigation, protection being first aid, clothing, shelter and fire, location being attracting, holding and directing attention, so rescue, the acquisition of water and food, then food, So finding water, making it safe to drink, finding food, making it safe to eat, which of course the food being the last in the priorities in your survival situation, and then navigation, being able to navigate, and if it's, you know, you always stay with the vehicle or the plane crash, only move as a last resort. Yeah.

[12:25] And, of course, navigation using map and compass, but, of course, being celestial navigation, knowing what the sun's doing using solar methods as well, aids to navigation we do. Because in an emergency situation, you may not have some of those. So as far as a height is concerned, knowing what to do in what order is really, really important. So Mod 1 deals with a lot of that stuff when you have equipment. And a lot of people run into trouble because they don't know what to do once their equipment fails.

[12:55] And it's very important that knowledge and skills trump equipment having all the equipment in the world many people have perished and they've gotten in trouble from hikes and other things because they don't have the um the knowledge and skills they just know how to use their equipment but take it away and they're in trouble so we teach skills you know you know you know how to use a knife being able to make make things being able to make fire firstly with modern methods furrow rods and things like that under all conditions rain hail shine wind being able to erect emergency shelters things uh things like that and of course um water procurement how to make water safe to drink um how to find it how to make it safe to drink um through filter um of course filtration and then boiling not just relying on a gadget or a device which is great but once it stops working or you lose it or something then your knowledge and skills needs to come to the fore so we teach all that sort of stuff without equipment-based first and then as the courses progress.

[13:58] We take away some of those skills or, you know, how do you make the string? How do you make a fire if you don't have matches or a ferro rod? How do you make a natural shelter to get you out of harm's way and stay in that, you know, protect against heat loss, the five heat loss game mechanisms? So all of those things we teach on our basic courses And we get a lot of hikers that come to do that, that want to do solo trips and that. And that's just like basic skills and using, say, the five to ten essential items, which are, other than the clothing for the environment, wearing, being properly dressed and having the right clothing and being able to manage that clothing, which is absolutely essential. More people die from exposure than anything else. It's obviously having a cutting tool, an effective sort of cutting tool, because knowledge and skills, you can do everything with a proper cutting tool. A good combustion device and knowing what to do without it or how to make fire without it. A container, a container being absolutely essential, the boiling water, a metal container, having a metal container is essential. Many things you can do with that. A covering, some sort of emergency covering. It's not a tent or a hoochie or a tarp, those sorts of things. And, of course, your clothing is your first line of defence against the environment. But you need to know how do you make it short if you don't have that?

[15:21] And cordage. Cordage, we use it all the time. So for everything, but, you know, how do you make cordage if you don't have it? So there are like five essential school bases, you know, so clothing, cutting tool, combusting device, covering, container and cordage, those being the top five because they're the most difficult and hard to produce in nature. That's what we focus on in our Mod 1 schools, which should be the focus of any sort of person going into the outdoors remotely because once your equipment fails, that's what you have. Other than that, other equipment would be, say, cloths, bandanas, because you can use cotton for all sorts of first aid uses and things like that, but you should never improvise on purpose. Always have the proper equipment with you. And then, so things like that, other than that, you know, obviously a compass map and compass if you're going to environment a um you know duct tape, plenty of which is also part of your first aid kit other than you know proper tourniquets and a proper designated first aid kit for anything that happens and people should have remote wilderness first aid um training which is you know the priorities of survival and so first of your protection element is first aid in valid first aid training some providers are better than others.

[16:39] And it needs to be pressure tested and needs to work. And so those sorts of things, an EPIRB in the centre, things like a Garmin, there's some great things like Garmin inReach, something with an inReach capability that actually you can text from, which can also hit the emergency send in the cover button to get help. But you also have the means of texting, so it's not as serious. So that's really important and that's, you know, with satellites, that's a fantastic either the garmin mini or the garmin um 67i for hiking that's why i use that a lot i actually use that in alone as well with contestants who have to you know look for someone, and things like that because it's got its own maps but of course you need to know how to use a map and compass which in the military comes first gps's should be used to check position not be the sole form of navigation at all because there are too much reliance on technology um is is foolhardy because technology fails. So you have to have backups for backups. Other than that, things like dry bags and, of course, you know, your food and your water. So...

[17:47] So knowledge of how to use those basic items as well as knowing what to use. Every item should have three uses. If you can't use it for three uses, you probably need to think about something else.

[18:00] But, and of course, comfort being the last thing you add, but knowing what to do in what order and how to use that essential equipment is paramount. And that's what we teach on our Mod 1 course, and we get a lot of hikers coming to do that because they're the things that they're going to need to know straight off the bat remote situations you know if something goes wrong but also just gives them a you know sense of confidence and you know improving how to you know use natural navigation finding a direction with the sun and how shadows move the way the sun moves and things like that can actually aid your navigation abilities by using other things rather than relying on a gpx and that's the way natural navigation using the stars navigating with the stars knowing how they move and the heavens work sort of gives us a better knowledge of what's going on on the ground and how to find your way and all these things they're all linked they're all like come under the umbrella of bushcraft but yeah so it's a thorough set of skills in an emergency situation and then as you develop skills emergency skills and of course rescue you know all that sort of stuff with location then you can start looking at more the bushcraft things okay you're here for a bit longer time longer time you can actually sort of.

[19:18] Sort of settle in a bit more and making the tools you need instead of bringing them in we have a saying um the more you know the less you have to carry so um skills and knowledge and skills don't weigh anything that should be um our main focus on developing skills and knowledge rather than having the last the latest shiny piece of equipment and that's probably what i see the biggest fault particularly in australia and particularly looking at the four-wheel drive industry we've got pretty much all the gear and no idea you've got so much equipment that people just don't know any skills outside of it so we're sort of trying to teach um of course that's not everyone but um with a lot of our early explorers um two prime examples burke and wills for example um no knowledge and skills um not really any knowledge or respect of indigenous culture.

[20:11] 20 tonnes of equipment over a mile along and they both perished. Funnily, that's natural selection, but that's same lack of knowledge and skills, so you compare to someone like John McDowell-Stewart, who had travelled very light using only essential equipment, good navigator, good bushman. He was a surveyor, good respect for Indigenous culture and that type of thing at the time, and just a good knowledge of what he was doing, and he navigated from water source to water source, where Burke and Wills just went from A to B, hoping there'd be water. So that sort of mentality is still alive today in having all the equipment but not having the knowledge and skills to back that up if something should fail.

[20:59] Yeah, so that's what we aim to teach on our courses and that primary skill set of what we teach in the military to Army and Air Force pilots about, okay, you don't have your equipment, how do you get on and how do you affect the priorities of surviving the correct order if something's happened unplanned.

[21:22] So there's a lot, a lot, a lot of very, very interesting stuff in there. And I could pick your brains about that for hours and hours. But I guess keeping on track, there was one thing that I want to pick out of that, which did jump out at me. And you're talking about the remote first aid and the sense of it being pressure tested. And I guess one thing, well, a couple of memories jumped to mind there of like situations in my professional career where you know everyone is first aid qualified something happens and it's never been pressure tested and when actually something happened you know all of that kind of learning fell apart so i guess for a hiker listening to this and they're like okay maybe i've done a first aid qualification or maybe i haven't quite done a remote first aid or maybe i've done one but it wasn't really like too full on, In that type of scheme, how would you look at pressure testing these skills if someone was doing it themselves or if someone was trying to seek out a course which would, you know, have this a part of them?

[22:23] Well, and first aid, as I said, with the protection element, which is first aid clothing shelter fire because you'll die, you know, there's another thing known as the rule of threes, which isn't set in snow, and that's pretty much three minutes without air, three hours without shelter, three days without water, three weeks without food, food being the last of the importance in a short-term survival scenario, definitely long-term. But it's not set in stone. But three minutes without air is immediate. If you're not breathing or bleeding uncontrollably, death is in minutes. So first aid is so, so important. And blood goes round and round, air goes in and out. So it's like keeping that system closed so that it can still function. The military we do lots of, training, obviously, for combat and what happens. And through conflicts around the world, they've got lots of training and particularly with the use of tourniquets, which haven't been used a lot, and even in Australia, but now they've proven to save so many lives. And some of our emergency services still don't use them, but it's catching up. And it's a very, very valid train.

[23:40] We, at Bushcrafts of Old Australia, we actually um run a wilderness first aid course and it's run by attack med which are all ex-military medics and it's all pressure pressure tested and scenario based so you're putting on tourniquets under pressure and sometimes after jogging around because you've once say for example and it's all geared to what the sort of things that you could happen um were happening in a remote wilderness, using a knife or an axe, crush injuries, broken legs, things like that. And the difference is that you may be on your own. You may not be able. You can't just call Sam for help. You may need to manage that injury or walk out. So the training we do is geared towards those people. We have artificial limbs, spurning blood, which students have to put on tourniquets to stop the blood flow where they have to make fires to keep people warm. Imagine using an emergency blanket, the space blankets, but that needs to be put on close to the skin, not over the clothing. And a lot of courses are done. The providers don't teach that. It needs to be under the clothing, close to the skin to work effectively.

[24:53] And two of them, keep people warm and people that have lost a lot of blood. Also more succumb to hypothermia as well and shock, culture all sorts of things so you need to really keep people warm so, good first aid training and i'm not a first aid provider myself just done a lot of courses as well as the military it needs to be pressure tested and just like martial arts if you train to pull punches that's what you're going to do you need to practice properly and i know there are providers out there some and some are just tick and flick type things but you need to be outside in the environment doing those things and treating people on the ground out in the bush in the rain um in the water some of our scenarios people are dragged out of the water and they're actually probably cold and they you know particularly the player the role models that need to be kept warm because they actually are cold and the fire's lit in time and but needs to be that sort of training if you're venturing into a remote area solo hiking you need to train first aid in a way that's realistic.

[26:06] And go through those things and be thinking about the possibilities that you can't send for help and you need to manage that injury or you might have to get out of there on your own if you're able to do so. So there's that as well. So that needs to be considered. So, yeah, so pressure tested, you know, as I said, the military is saying the way you train is the way you fight. So if it's not realistic and pressure tested and a lot of our bushcraft activities and fire lighting are done under pressure you know you've got 20 minutes to make the fire set up a shelter and boil a little water from scratch using a ferro rod or something like that where it could be wind coming in and weather coming in really quickly where you need to get a fire going very fast before it chucks it down we need to get dry or you need to provide a warm drink for someone that's going down the hypothermia route. They're all skills that need to be pressure tested. If you're only practising in the ideal environments, once you're suddenly put in austere environments or things that aren't, all those things become a lot, lot harder. And the greater the need for fire, the harder it is. So that can be applied, obviously, those principles to many, many things.

[27:20] So you've obviously listed at this stage like a lot of different skills or areas

[27:25] or bits of equipment like that is very, very important with these types of things. But I'm curious if we were to say breaking up remote adventures into different lengths and sort of say, hey, a hiker is wanting to go out for two to three days or a hiker wanted to go out for maybe, you know, four days to a couple of weeks or a hiker wanted to go out for one of these multi-month adventures. Would there be any skills or bits of equipment like which you may highlight would be really important as we're kind of jumping up to these different lengths or different distances, if that makes sense? Yeah, no, it does, Rowan.

[28:02] So once again, a knowledge of the priorities of survival is important. You know, once again, the plan, protection, location, acquisition, navigation and those areas and having your kit that deals with that. And a lot of the survival kits you buy and a lot of them are gimmicks. I'm not a big fan of survival kits because you should have different items. For example, everyone should, you know, apart from the most important thing being adequate and correct clothing. So for hot environments, loose-fitting cottons to keep you cool, cold environments, woolens and synthetics. Wool retains much of its injury value when it's damp and it's brilliant stuff and it's moderately fire retarded so i always choose walls and synthetics dry quickly uh a thorough knowledge of the heat loss gain mechanisms of conduction convection radiation evaporation respiration really really important because not only for your clothing and how to manage the.

[29:07] As well as when you're making a shelter, it needs to look after those things. So other than clothing, you know, a knife, a cutting tool with knowledge and skills, you can do everything with a knife, a good knife. And everything we own, live in, travel in, has a cutting tool used in its manufacture. So we use a knife and there's so many things to do. You can use with an appropriate knife. of fire lighting, ferro rod, you know, ferrosium, something that isn't, that if you've got, you know, weather, cold, lighters don't work, you need a few different ways of making fire. A metal water container to oil water in. Many things. So you have a metal cooking pot. That's important. There's stainless steel metal cooking pots, stainless steel containers, you know, to put, you know, nesting cups that you can, you know, to fit into pockets cordage parachute cord can be opened up to use as sewing devices to fix equipment fishing line track making a whole stack of things you can use proper parachute cord and there are lots on out in the market that actually isn't proper parachute cord that's another topic you know bandannas uh you know sheets of cloth cloth can be used for all sorts of things 100% and cotton, multiple uses of large sheets of cotton.

[30:34] There's all of these things. Knowledge of how to use this essential equipment is all based around knowing what those priorities of survival. We have some of those on our website blog, a few articles about what they are. And once you know what you need to do in what order and you've got your kit selected based on it, um that essential kit is the same for no matter what duration the hike is and for example my 12 piece kit in my day pack if i'm just going for three hours i've always got that stuff even going on aircraft minus the sharps and anything that you can't take on a plane but in my pack even if it's only three hours i've always got extra warm clothing i've got an extra say a thermal top or bottom depending on the cold I've always got an extra say woolen beanie woolen socks, if it's cold and I might have extra. This is in addition to the clothing on the pack. I've got some form of the ferro rod, a cutting tool, which could be a multi-tool.

[31:36] It doesn't mean something. It's got some options but good quality.

[31:40] A mantle container of some description of boiled water. I've got a few hanks of paracord, a couple of large, 100% cotton bandannas for multiple uses, duct tape, a dry bag. Dry bags are great. For example, you can carry water in a dry bag.

[31:54] You can use it as a flotation device. you can store things in a pillow there's like multiple uses of a dry bag same as a large garbage bag or plastic garbage unfortunately it's hard to get non-pleated bags in Australia so I have to get them from overseas you can use a large unpleated bag single seal for so many different things from ponchos to shelters to insulated insulated mattresses and it fits in your pocket in fact a lot of these items will fit on the person and rather than just in your pack and you've actually got all those elements of survival there um a small first aid kit you know your garmin or your gps and of course a map a compass around your neck and on your person all of those things i take that for three hours for a three hour hike and of course a head torch is another one thing a head torch is really important because when people get lost they usually um probably don't want to admit they're lost until late in the day when they need it so a good reliable head torch and spare batteries is essential um and of course any food snacks but as i said in a 72 hour situation with three or four days food is the last of importance um you've got other priorities to deal with but once they're taken care of then you can worry about food um so.

[33:14] And as the duration of the height might increase, you'd add comfort items that, I know, going for a night, you might have a sleeping bag, lightweight sleeping bag, applicable to the conditions, a bivy bag to keep that dry, also to stop convective cooling through the wind, the shelter, most of the time I live under a hoochie, which is just an army shelter, a tarp. I very infrequently use a tent, unless it's above the tree line in the wind, but most of the time a tarp is fine. You have a fire under a tarp. You don't get wet under a tarp if you do. It's because you've set it up incorrectly in the wrong place.

[33:51] So that's great learning how to use those. We teach those on our courses. And so it's comfortising, of course, a sleeping mat to prevent heat loss through conduction of the cold ground, knowing those heat loss going mechanisms is essential, even just for comfort. So as the duration of the hike would go i would add those comfort items and to that is multi-day health we're going to add food lightweight food you know in the military we use ration packs but you can actually make ration packs i've got a few examples that i have youtube channel how to make a ration pack from what you buy in a supermarket you know for multi-day hikes you know you know cheaper options rather than buying the purpose-built stuff which can be quite expensive but there are options healthy options to make your own based on the sort of military concept and you can actually have a whole week's food. And, of course, with food procurement skills, tracking, of course, sticking to regulations and what you're allowed to do, you can then procure fishing, you can procure your own food.

[34:50] Unlikely to do that on a hike because you're in movement you need to stay in an area to forage you know for food but if you've got knowledge of plants and that you can supplement things from the environment you find but you're on the move so that's harder to do so um water procurement how to you know if you know navigation you should be including water sources in your route planning so that you can fill up and boil water if you don't don't have the means to ride if you're not allowed to you'll need to um have you're gonna have to carry some form of gas so and all those sorts of things or if you've got food that doesn't need cooking can you have it cold and and all that type of thing so it depends on the route where you're going um and you know food and water being the heaviest you know one kilo per liter of water the military we use work on.

[35:41] Six liters a day um in your pack but up in northern australia you've only got four four litres on your webbing six litres in your pack that's you know 10 litres that's a lot that's 10 kilos alone just in water plus mission essential equipment and things like that but of course if you've got the ability to procure water on your own you don't need to do that and that comes down to your navigation skills and being able to procure water there are different ways transpiration blags and getting water out of trees with plastic clear bath I've had to do that on a couple of for occasions for real. And those things are lifesavers and knowing how to get water out of saplings and many people are perishing in the Aussie bush unnecessarily because they didn't know how to find water and it's been right there in saplings. They're small amounts but knowing how to do those things is important. Once again, knowledge and skills trumps equipment.

[36:31] So it's important. So all of those items I have the same in my day pack for whether it's a three-hour trip. Those same items are in it for whether it's a month long. All that I add to it is comfort items or extra food or some food procurement options, whether it's a fishing kit or things like that. And so it's smaller in miniature for my smaller pack, but all the same items are there for larger hikes and things like that where you've got that always there, but you've got that base level of equipment. And, of course, the knowledge and skills of how to do without it so you've lost your fire okay how can you make fire without matches and things like that how can you you don't have any cordage how can you make it using the plants around you and a knowledge of that you can really take that down the the um to another level um and of course there's you know the course we're running the course right at the moment with um dr theresa camper from where we're doing animal processing using kangaroos and making bone tools and we um out of a whole animal and the things you can do from what's right in front of us and everything's there just knowing how to use it and yeah it's just a matter of knowledge and skills once again, hopefully that answered that question is once again a long a long-winded answer but it's yeah it depends on how long you're going for but the essentially the essential equipment.

[37:58] Remains the same it's just adding to that with comfort items.

[38:03] And then I know that obviously for our listeners we've got people based in Australia but also people quite quite around the world and and I would assume that certain recommendations probably do change in different parts of the world so just off the top of your head are there any distinct differences in regards to these topics of survival and bushcraft that you see in Australia compared to you know other parts of the world good question um some of the wording can be different um for example on our courses we're not i mean you've got we don't really do prepping you've got the okay i'm not sort of a fan of the sort of zombie apocalyptic um paranoia that exists elsewhere um there's sensible emergency preparedness and that's more what we we deal with um but uh there's one thing and sort of survivalism over in the state can be something different so and it's and so as i said there's a there's a quite a large prepping i'm not sort of down there as i said we've looked at sensible emergency preparedness with those things so um.

[39:11] So bushcraft, for example, that word's used more in the UK than, say, what it is in the States is a thing called primitive skills, which I don't really like the term, but lots of, which is another step beyond bushcraft, which uses a mix of modern tools and equipment with many traditional skills. The primitive skill is like, okay, you don't have a knife, you need to flint that with your own knife. You're doing everything all traditionally, like, you know, almost using Stone Age technology, and it is a technology and it is an amazing amount of skill. We tend to frown upon, you know, cultures of the past because they didn't have all the, you know, the modern equipment, but their knowledge of the environment, the plants, and to do that to me far exceeds our knowledge of equipment. I mean, it's almost like being dumbed down by technology today where people don't know how to even tie their own shoes anymore and it's frightening. With the device, it's too much reliance on technology by far and people don't know what to do without it. So knowing how all these skills have been around for thousands, our whole history is that, but we've literally lost it in the last 50 years and it's getting worse and worse.

[40:24] So that's one thing. But so, and there's a big resurgence of that. I did a lot of my bushcraft training in Europe.

[40:31] Funnily enough, the best schools are in Europe and the States that have seen. In Australia, there's not many schools, and I think a lot of Australians take the bush for granted, all these wild-open places, but there's not many bushcraft schools. And maybe it's because in Europe they don't have as many, and people, it's a very different depth of knowledge that I've seen in Europe, and that's why I did my training. I personally thought was a much higher standard and very detailed. And as you know, you know, every Aussie is an expert, and that was sort of the attitude that I sort of got from when I was over there. And there's schools everywhere, very, very good ones. So I went and did my training, mostly in Europe and in the States, to get a lot of the bushcraft survival. But it is growing and it's changing now and that sort of hunger for looking after yourself. Self-reliance and how to look after yourself is really really important so i'm seeing that difference a lot of people coming out of courses because they want to reconnect with nature they want to learn plants plant identification but then huge and resources because that's pretty much the heart of everything it's your resources but to a lot of people it's this green stuff that gets in the road but which plants not only can you eat and water indicators you know um fuel um string making like there's a supermarket out there but it's um and it's you know it's all plants that's pretty much most of everything.

[41:57] Very very important skill sets plan identification so there's all that sort of thing and um the other reason people are coming people are getting tired of the uh i think uh the system that's what a lot of people say you know we live in a world with finite resources um yet we live in a system that demands constant expenditure you know cyclical consumption and just exponential growth and consumerism and it's a complete odds with the natural world that we live in and i think people know that a lot of people are saying that on the courses and as I said they're wanting to learn how can I look after this and I think we all know that inherently there's something very wrong and we need this needs to be addressed we've got one planet we need to look after it and I think the very system we're living within is at odds to it and that's the other thing I'm seeing and all around the world the courses have been done everyone's it's these are teaching self-reliant skills how to look up like we all our parents parents had the ability to be much more you know self-sufficient and with technology our dependence on it is becoming far too great i feel it's really important to have of course we need to know everything about it but it's i just think it's out of balance we need to have that with some effective knowledge and skills and i see that at school as well we teach some school courses and just the general knowledge of what kids have growing up.

[43:22] What we had is getting less and less and less and sometimes frightening with, once again, the over-dependence of technology.

[43:31] And so a lot of schools around doing that. So there's brilliant schools all around Europe, and I frequently go over there to train, and you're aware I'm an internal student, you never stop learning.

[43:42] I don't really like the word expert. No one's an expert. And I think, you know, people that apply the word expert to themselves and stop learning. So you're always a student you're forever a student learning and I learn from our students people come from all sorts of walks of life on our courses and you know some meet some amazing people with different skill sets and it's fascinating and yeah so I encourage everyone goes and does different courses with different people around and there's a number of schools growing in Australia there are some charters popping up as well probably from the alone as well but I sort of see that but alone's done a great job in attracting people to the outdoors well it just needs to be responsible well the other thing we do on our courses Rowan is we.

[44:29] All of these skills we teach, environmental stewardship, and that is not only having all those sort of skill sets, it's like how do you do it safely for the environment?

[44:39] All our courses are under a parachute, and a lot of the courses are done in the bush, fully in the bush overseas. Is and um we you know how to use a latrine how to boil burn your toilet paper um responsibly and safely because it takes ages to break down burn your your um you know your business your waste um and that breaks down in just weeks less sometimes depending on the soil it's actually quite you know we have latrines and and some it's all done within three months um and you can actually do that and as an outdoor guide and kakia is always frustrated by the number of amount of toilet paper i see on hiking trails and it's unnecessary because it's it's something that should be taught in schools we have a couple of videos on youtube channel of how to go to the toilet in the bush responsibly and i think every hiker every four wheel drive person needs to know how to go to the toilet in the bush and if you can't do that and wipe your um dispo burn your toilet paper safely if it's safe to do so then you need to carry it with you and take it back but everyone leaves it there and that's I see that problem being from what I've seen in Australia particularly bad but I don't see that in Scandinavia in some of those countries where that's taught at school and it should be taught here as well and I think with people going out into the bush and it's great that people are getting out into the environment wanting to.

[46:08] Do stuff but there needs to be a um an education with that about how to look after the air in cleanup and that's one thing i'd love to see more of and we sort of teach that on our courses as well how to leave a.

[46:21] Fire and leave no trace there's no such thing as no trace there's minimal trace um and how to clean up responsibly for example in in sweden they have a law called allermans which is the right to the right to roam. You're allowed to camp and any Swedish listen, forget my pronunciation, but for my go over there quite regularly.

[46:46] And you can camp on private property as long as it's not within 100 metres of a dwelling or 200 metres. You can camp for a few days and people clean up. They don't know how to leave a fire and then basically let it burn down to ash and then dispose of the ash, scatter it about. And so it's soft to the touch and then camouflage to the area, taking any rubbish with you.

[47:11] And it's actually bushcraft. that's very frowned upon to leave unburned pieces of wood that means you haven't timed your fire. So we teach all those things and so to leave the trace. And a lot of, I find a lot of our laws we have in Australia exist because people don't know how to do the right thing. And so that's what we're trying to do on our course is teach some of those things, not just the survival skills, but okay, how can we teach the skills but also leave no trace so it can leave it respectfully for the environment and for the other people coming behind them so they've left no traces, no unsightly pieces of burnt wood, toilet paper and rubbish, would be common sense to take with you, but sadly it's not. So there's all those things and I guess I learnt a lot of those things overseas, not so much here because in Europe particularly and in England with a lot of the bushcraft schools, they're very big, Ray Mears' school, Woodlaw and Paul Kirtley, I've done many of his course overseas. They teach all of those skills. Very, you know, environmental stewardship is forefront. And so we add that too. We're very big on that. Yeah, different skills, schools, survival training skills, bushcraft skills, and I guess we're an amalgamation of all of that. It's, you know, environmental stewardship is a huge part of that. Yeah.

[48:35] So we're going to talk a little bit more about bushcraft survival Australia in just a second. But I guess for my listeners who are based over the USA, the UK or maybe through Europe, is there any one you may recommend to that they may source information or look into courses in those parts of the world? Um yeah um in the in the uk i did a lot of woodlaw school which is um ryan nears it's um he's a bbc presenter very high standard imagine david attenborough the david attenborough bushcraft and very respectful with respect for indigenous cultures i did a lot of um courses at woodlaw school years ago um paul curtley also an ex um woodlaw instructor head of operations there he He runs an excellent school called Frontier Bushcraft, very, very high standard, and he's like the bushcraft scientist and we host him. He comes over every couple of years. Fantastic school.

[49:35] There's quite a few schools in the UK, some very, very good ones, and bushcraft is huge. They even have a bushcraft show where they have, you know, massive. I mean, they do have a larger population, but there's like a, you know, it's a big following of this. And they don't have the areas that we have go figure it's really quite strange but very good standard of schools um in the states done a few courses the pathfinder still is great um the boulder outdoor schools or boss has some wonderful um some of the best instructors in the world there as well they do a lot of the primitive skill sets um you know and they have a a uh a meet once a the year called Rabbit Stick, some really good standard of instructors there.

[50:24] And there's some great schools in Canada, Mors, Kazanski, who's the father of say Canadian bushcraft, sadly died a couple of years ago. And there's some Karamat Wilderness Ways, which does a lot of that. Some very, very, very, very detailed, good quality schools exist. And so, yeah, by all means, there's some in Australia.

[50:50] There's many different schools. I did a lot of early on with Bob Cooper Outback Survival in Western Australia. And there's some great schools everywhere for those. Check those out. Check out reviews. Look at the credentials of the instructors. See what their background is because there are some charlatan ones as well that are popping up, sadly, and alone has done that with lots of people that don't have the necessary training. and there isn't an award for bushcraft for survival like there is for canoeing and that. So you need to do your homework. There are a lot of military good survival schools out there as well, which, of course, teach more of that type of thing. And, of course, we do both at the school, being a military survival instructor and a boat, so we have a mixture of both. And that's what I'd say as far as overseas. Yeah, just check out some of the top ones I can recommend that have some good things to learn.

[51:49] Fantastic. Kent, and then for the Aussie listeners now, could you tell us just a little bit more about Bushcraft Survival Australia?

[51:58] Yeah, Rowan, so I guess from doing lots of courses overseas.

[52:04] And sort of frustrated that there wasn't a lot of schools in Australia and partly due to the Aussie attitude of being, oh, yeah, I'm an expert and that she'll be right, which was an attitude I always hated, I thought there's got to be more to hear so i went over there and i just found some skill i was just blown away, so um and with my traveling as the trumpet player on the ship site and hiking and when i was doing lots of stuff i just did a plethora of courses over about you know 13 years of just um i was just a survival bushcraft course junkie i just did courses everywhere around the world so i brought those backs and i and as a i was also a school music teacher at school so i have a teaching background so teaching for me is something i'm really passionate about and i did a lot of outdoor teaching as well um i was a teacher trained teacher so i that was really important to me to be able to teach well and i just there was i wanted to have the standard of what i saw overseas but adapted to australian environments and coupled with my military survival training which is different i wanted to i use some of the pressure testing that we do in the military um and things that I've got from other schools. Some of the Pathfinder tests are great, and I'll use some of those. It's Dave Canterbury School. And, of course, just with the level of detail that I've done a lot of the schools in Europe. And I'll put that all as a mix into the...

[53:32] Using the Australian resources and in our climate. And sort of it's an amalgamation of all of that and with a bit of military-type stuff, the essential stuff, and that's why it's called Bushcraft Survival Australia, a lot of the heart and the passion and the philosophical connection to the land. But you need to learn important survival skills, which are emergency skills. You need to learn those first. And our courses are structured, so Mod 1, which is three days, three nights, in the bush the entire time. You know, so it's under a parachute, first night they can use a tent. And it's for all people, you know, that don't have any experience. But it's not easy. It's definitely not easy.

[54:13] We do the theory. It's the flagship course that all our other courses come from and everyone needs to do that course because it is quite different than other courses. And some people come back to do the course multiple times. It's different. Every course is different in the sense that there's always something new to learn. And so you know the theory important theory components which are taken from military um instructions important stuff so mod one is all about using that equipment the essential equipment the priorities for survival it's all based around the priority survival and it um in nights with indigenous cooking you without cooking pots on fires basic fire lighting um shelter building using equipment and tarps how top new to essential knot tying and how to set up your tarp, live under a tarp, using equipment to navigation, natural introduction to natural navigation, the sun and the stars, signaling and rescue.

[55:10] You know, those sorts of things, getting out of harm's way, all the basics. And then there's an activity on the final day where we put that to pressure where there's an individual test of putting up a shelter with the not shown under pressure, lighting boiling water and using ferro rod and natural tender in a timed sense.

[55:33] Because you need to do things under pressure. And it's when under pressure, that's when things go wrong. And, of course, it's a guide just to see how you're going and then we come together and do a signalling activity for rescue. And it's all done in a time. And we do lots of pressure timed tests because people are tired over the three days. That's essential. But we do it and it's very safely managed. We have a nice, tight camp, very, you know, very clean and organised and, you know, we teach a lot of that as well. Um the good organized cams good or kit is good organized mindsets organized as well and so we teach all those skills but they're pressure testing and planned identification all of those things um and then as the courses progress module two some of that equipment disappears okay we teach you know some friction fire methods uh they live in a natural shelter for a couple of days they.

[56:29] The improvised water collection, which they do in Mod 1-2 using military bags of water purification, filtering, great kit item, a mill bank bag to take with you on a hike because you can just filter water and then boil it straight away or whether you're using gas rather than relying on a fancy bit of high-tech gear that does everything. You need to know what the five water contaminants are, which is, you know, turbidity, parasitized protozoa, bacteria, viruses and chemicals. Nice to have a device that does everything, but if that device fails, you need to know, well, what's the main components? What do I need to get rid of? So technology is great, but you need to have a backup case. So we teach all that on mod one, and as the courses progress, the items diminish. And then, okay, how do you make string in the bush? And we take some things away. but it's all gradual and different cooking methods as well. How to cook without cooked pots and make. Basically, it's about as the bushcraft takes over as the survival and the long-term, the more in-depth plant knowledge, and how to make the tools that you need rather than have to carry them in. Pot stands and all these different notch and cut, how to use knives properly to make.

[57:46] Notches and hooks and shelters because then you can make everything you need you don't have to carry it in and then mod threes you know intermediate and that's where it's in context and that's where things are more pressure tested when you're living in a natural shelter for an entire week you know hand drill more advanced you know you don't have a cooking pot how do you make a cooking pot to hold water and then hot rock boiling it if you don't have the ability to that and how do you do that? So we take away some of those things and the skills gets to get deeper and deeper and eventually we're not running our advance yet, but that will be in a remote area, pressure tested by that. And people have, we have our Wilderness First Aid course, which is done in conjunction with TACMED.

[58:28] Which are ex-military medics, and you get your apply first aid, apply first aid in remote environments, all those same awards and certifications, it's just done in a really practical way, very realistic training. So people, the students have to have those sorts of skills. And we have an international person that comes out every year. At the moment, Teresa Camp is here and she is a lone season eight, also experimental archaeologist, and they're doing a seven-day use the whole animal course and hide tanning and some basketry and a whole stack of things thrown in there with a lot of the more primitive skills when we have these sort of specialist skills which all are part of the same thing. It's just a different focus and we're always looking to add different courses. We'll be adding a two-day navigation course probably next year.

[59:25] And so, yeah, so pretty much it's designed to give people a base. It's very structured and our website has all those details on and we've got a few YouTube videos. There's actually a video on YouTube which has we just put up recently, which is sort of highlights of our Mod 1. Some of the things you'll learn but it's immersive and of course all the environmental stewardship as well how to go to the toilet in the bush safely and respectfully and clean up after you use without leaving the trace we teach all that stuff because everyone that goes into the bush should be looking after that and thinking about people that comes with us and hopefully the more people that know that we won't need some of the rules that we have because people are doing the right thing I mean, rules don't exist because people aren't. But I'd like to see all hikers that are going and know how to, you know, take, you know, whatever you take in, you need to bring out or you shouldn't be going in the first place.

[1:00:21] Yeah, so all those things are what we do on our courses. And, yeah, it's great fun and every course is different. We run them in different parts of the world. For example, our Mod 1 and 2, particularly in Darwin, we run them, North Queensland and Townsville, and I usually coincide that when I'm up. Teaching on either the Army courses in Darwin or the Air Force Combat Survival Training School and doing courses for the military up there. We'll run a civilian course afterwards. And then in Victoria, we're currently in Victoria and we're running, we've been here for a month, running a series of courses here. Mod 1's 2, then our willingness first aid one is next week and that's students must have their Mod 1 as well because it's all tailor-made to that course and the skill set you learn out in the bush. Um and um yeah all around the country we run run these courses so students can do the mod one mod two in different environments same skill sets but the plants and the resources change so they've got the ability to come back and do a course a second time that's 40 percent opposite for any second course and they um uh yeah can do the same skill sets because you never learn something once is some people come back multiple times because it keeps changing um well if the environment changes So just to do it in a different area. So that's an important thing we do as well. And it's fun. We have about 16 people on every course.

[1:01:45] And as I said, it's all immersive. It's all in the bush. The whole thing is in the bush and it's all in a natural environment. We try to keep things as natural, while some military, some, you know, we mix things up. But we are in Auburn, so we're teaching military survival. I use aspects, aspects that I think are applicable from what I've learned, essential things. But other than that, it's, yeah, we teach sort of both things. Philosophies of bushcraft and survival because, you know, essentially they're just words but, as I said, survival being, bushcraft being the parent subject that survival comes from, you know, it's a modern word. Yeah, so it's, yeah, I hope that answers that question.

[1:02:25] Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I guess if any of the listeners did want to dive into this a little bit and find out more about Bushcraft Survival Australia, potentially look into a course or whatever it may be, where should they find you? What's the best place to go? Our website is www.bushcraftsurvivalaustralia.com.au and it's got a description of all our courses we have on there, how they work, and about us page, the qualifications, everyone's what they do, what we're about. We have a YouTube channel, which is Bushcraft Survival Australia, which we have a lot of how-to videos on there. Some have some course elements on there so you can watch a video with that.

[1:03:12] As well as the usual social media facebook and instagram of course which i'm not a huge fan of social media but i understand it's um it's not my best thing i'm i i do but we have people that organize that stuff so um but it's an important part so we have lots of things on instagram as well um when i post doing things and uh yeah we have courses pretty much all through the year not so much in the summer season we don't run them in bushfire season and um yeah you can come back multiple times and do different courses and um and the bookings you can do book all the bookings through tri booking which is on a website and the course description this kit list what you need for the course, we do provide a lot of equipment as well, but all the details are on there. Fantastic. Well, for anyone who is interested, I'll make sure there are links for all of those links in the show notes below. So if anyone wants to check that out, just scroll on below and you'll be able to get into it. But Gordon, I think this has been a fantastic episode. It's been super, super, super interesting just hearing to some of the points and some of the areas you've been talking about. And I feel like it's a bit of a rabbit hole that a lot of people are going to potentially dive into after this, hopefully, for the good. So thank you so much for coming on, Gordon. It's been absolutely great and I really, really appreciate it. It's been my pleasure. Thanks for having me, Rahman.